to think you can have an opinion on Maragret Thatcher regardless of when you were born?

[NewStartInSpring]

Sorry I know people are sick of MT threads. However this one isn't about whether you are happy/sad she died or whether she did have good/bad policies etc.

I have seen quite a few people say that your opinion (regardless of what it is) isn't valid if you were not born during the time MT was Prime Minister.

Aibu to think this is ridiculous?

Surely if you believe that then the majority of us wouldn't be able to express an opinion on Hitler for example.

Tanith - absolutely agree.

And There's a lot of spin is being touted as fact, theres a lot of "whip them into a frenzy" going on.....wonder who could be behind that? applies at least as much to the Mail etcetera.

YANBU - I wasn't born when Hitler, Churchill, Stalin or Cromwell were in power but I'm well aware of their impact at the time and of their legacy today.

The rewriting of history going on at the moment though, must be confusing for those either not around at the time or looking no further than the media blackout reporting of her time in office.

She never got more than a 45% share of the vote and actuallygot less votes that Attlee when he lost an election.

Her economic strategy was funded by North Sea oil which provided 16% of our GDP - which wasn't spent on our infrastructure -leaving sunsequent governments to pick up the bill for education. Health, Transport & services

Her support of Pinochet, Apartheid, Pol-Pot and Sadam Hussein shamed is globally

She, with Tebbit, engineered the break-up of the Unions at the same time as relaxing controls on the financial sector & corporations effectively leading to the concentration of real power being in the hands of the latter and removing the power to oppose them from both working people & successive governments.

Todays teenagers are living with her legacy, they are customers not students, consumers not citizens and are destined to carry the brunt of this governments "austerity" cuts for the rest of their lives. So I think they are as entitled as anyone to have an opinion.

niceguy2 - your views of the world are oh so simple. I've been in Trade Unions for 30 years and have never been on strike, and have never been asked to go on strike by union members in another industry.

I have seen some belligerent union members in that time, but I have also seen many more who work damned hard for the welfare of their members and the good of the organisation. I have seen some good management, and some absolutely p*ss poor. Good firms know that employee relationships matter.

YANBU I have opinions on Hitler, but wasn't alive during his time.

I think there is a lot of bandwagon jumping regarding MT, and a lot of the misinformed hysteria does seem more prevalent amongst my younger mates. One comment I can think of was "Britain was fine until she came along" which makes her lefty comments seem stupid, seeing as Britain was about as far away from fine as you could get before she came to power.

I am anti-thatcher, grand-daughter of miners and mining towns, the things she did (like stopping supplies getting to the strikers to break them) were awful whatever your political leanings, but some of the shit coming from my lefty comrades are own goals and I'm ashamed to be associated with some of them.

I don't think the problem is with people being young, rather being mis-informed, slightly ignorant, not interested in any truth and running with rumour. The facts speak for themselves... her own party ousted her, she started strong (but wrong imo) and then became a loose cannon and dangerous.

I won't dance on her grave though, any power she had as a person became impotent a long time ago, and we've had opportunities since then to sort things out, we haven't to our shame. To say that she still has power now, is to say the things she did are no match for us... which I refuse to believe.

Things could change if the left were an opposition force to be reckoned with, but sadly they are still not. And getting Ding Dong into the charts will only serve to make the left look like a bunch of mardy children, not a force to be reckoned with.

I had a dream about her last night, I dreamt that I had to go the ritz to make Margaret Thatcher a dress to make her appearance in, she had picked me because I was from a coal mining village and my parents voted labour
she hadn't even died, she was immortal and was making this appearance in a Dr Who type fashion
I was extremely angry
She took me to her bedroom and Douglas Hurd and John Major were sleeping in there on bunk beds

I've been in Trade Unions for 30 years and have never been on strike, and have never been asked to go on strike by union members in another industry.

Your experiences may have been very different had you been a member of one of a union in the 70's. Plus in 1980 secondary action (sympathy strikes) was made illegal. Thankfully.

I'm pleased though you haven't been on strike in 30 years. Thankfully strikes now are few & far between.

I was reading about her time in office the other day. I was a child when she was in power but it is quite staggering how she changed Britain - deregulating the stock market, selling off our industries etc

a few points:

• she established the south east as the centre of economic power and the north was left to rot as it's sources of employment and thus economy were destroyed. I do remember the numbers of young people on the streets of London, cardboard city at Waterloo where the Imax is now. Perhaps it was inevitable this would happen in an increasingly globalised marketplace - but perhaps it could have been handled with more humanity, perhaps other european countries handled it better, perhaps she was doing what needed to be done, but very badly.

• Section 28. FFS

• I'm not sure if she was 'supportive' of apartheid rather than supportive of De Klerk but her support of Pinochet is mind boggling.

-"We are a grandmother" still makes me smile.

I remember life being pretty good

How did you get on with 25% inflation?

Not sure if it was this forum or another one I'm on where someone mentioned their dad stockpiling whiskey so they would have something to barter for food.

Heard that Harold Wilson closed 4 times as many mines during his time in office. Is that true? Also, the way the strike was called was awful and everyone just remembers miners demanding 35% pay increase in a declining industry.

I have to say I was a child of Thather. Would never have achieved what I did without her being in power.

@niceguy2. I was a union member in the 70s. Yes, thankfully strikes are few and far between now, they are a poor way of solving disputes, as decent union leaders and decent managers know. (And yes, both do exist.)

On the other hand Unions have done good things making sure that e.g. health and safety regulations are complied with. (And again, not all firms are bad at enforcing health and safety.)

You really do seem to have a very black and white view of the world. I am just not going to share in your eulogising of Thatcher.

@aldiwhore - you talk a lot of sense there.

Umm, well a hell of a lot of young people here in South Yorkshire are living lives directly affected by dear ol' Mag's policies.

So yes, I think they are entitled to an opinion.

@chris481 How did I get on with 25% inflation? I recall when I was buying a house in the 1980s during the Thatcher years being scared stiff of the 18% rate and thankful that I had managed to get a fixed rate of 12% before the increase occured.

But you took my quote out of context - we were being told that life was 'pretty damn shit'. For a lot of the 70s it wasn't - there were good times and bad. Oh but of course, we have ignore the good bits, especially if they occurred under a Labour government (which I have never voted for BTW), because we are eulogising Mrs Thatcher.

Milk snatcher thatcher. The fact is the south did well out of her and the north badly

@Barbarian - I was living in the area during the latter part of the 70s. Youth employment was beginning to hit, I recall. But at the same time, I recall that public transport was extremely cheap and well run. Until it all got de-regulated.

Can't have cheap bus services run by the local corporation though.

I moved to Sheffield in 1990 LaVolcan and people were still reminiscing about the wonderfulness of the old bus service even then.

Sheffield didn't do so well in the 1980s but tbh it did a hell of a lot better than the small towns/villages across the rest of the county. They are still picking up the pieces even now.

AuntieStella
YABU - because this is the second thread on whether first-hand, direct experience matters.

What an utterly stupid thing to say. There are loads of threads on MT, I hadn't witnessed the one you mentioned - so what?

If you had already seen one and commented on it then you should have just ignored this.

No-one else felt the need to rock up and say what you did.

The fact that people don't remember what life was like at the time is what makes it so tragic. That's the issue for young people growing up in formerly strong working class communities that had 150 years of tradition behind them. They don't know what life was like for the generations before them because that life was ripped away, leaving a hole and a disconnect between them and older generations and wider society. A lot of people feel that loss. Even for someone of my age who remembers life before that happened, it is the most bizarre feeling of looking back at something that has been obliterated, almost as if it was never there and the whole thing was just pretend. A lot of the social problems caused by what she did have barely begun, because the older generations have held those towns together; that will fade as they die. I don't know what will replace it. Violence? Extreme racism?

I am just not going to share in your eulogising of Thatcher

Fair enough, I don't expect you to. But I am trying to bring some balance back to the discussion. As myself and many others have said, there needs to be some balance. Many people (yourself included I suspect) truly believe that Thatcher was the root of all evil, that until she got into power things were fine as they were and now blame her for stuff which may or may not happen in the future over twenty years after her premiership ended and after she is dead.

To me that is just stupid and naive.

As for supporting regimes we dislike, if the UK only supported regimes we approve of then the list would be very short indeed. I mean when you all drive to school later to do your school run where do you think much of the petrol came from? Saudi Arabia? That's hardly a hotbed of democracy is it? What about your smartphones? Made in China? That's hardly got an exemplary record on human rights has it? And those nasty American's. Starting wars all over the world and invading small countries . I mean really should we be dealing with them? India? I mean they pay slave labour wages.

Lavolcan says I live in a black & white world. Far from it. I know the world is a very grey place indeed. Which is why we need to apply some perspective and not blame Thatcher for every little thing which has happened both in the past, present and may happen in the future.

I was 4 when she left number 10. I can honestly say that I have no strong opinions about how she ran the country while she was in charge. I dont remember.

From what I've heard though when she became PM in 1979 the country was in a mess and something had to change. Chances are if it wasnt her that became PM but someone else those changes would have occurred eventually anyway.

The ding dong the witch is dead stuff is vile. As are the comparisons to Hitler, Suddam Hussain etc. You can not compare someone closing down mines/stopping milk for kids at school to the inhumane slaughter of millions. To do so is insulting the memory of those who have suffered and died as a result of regimes like theirs.

I'm no fan of David Cameron but when he carks it I will NOT be celebrating his death. There is no need for such hatred.

In answer to your question OP, I see no harm in voicing an opinion about MT. However many of those who seem the most jublient about her death (which I hope was peaceful, as I do for most, if not all, people!) werent even born/same deal as myself. So I dont understand why they feel so strongly I can only assume they dont care either way and would be partying/causing trouble anyway

Niceguy2 I can see why you'd think socialism has failed, not that it could ever succeed in isolation. Is it because capitalism has been such a resounding success, if you ignore the fact that 35 % of the planet's wealth is now concentrated in the hands of 1% of the population, that the most successful capitalist country still can't manage to feed, house and educate its population, that almost a billion people are starving and that the UK the world's seventh largest economy can't afford to fund education to the same level as countries like Tunisia and Latvia and spends less on healthcare (as a % of GDP) than (amongst others) Slovakia & Moldova, Germany, Samoa & France.

Ignoring that, the present collapse as well as the others that have been before and will come again, it is a wonderfully efficient system.

Ooh - Niceguy. How I agree with you! There are many many people who find it very easy to blame others for their woes and will moan and complain forever more.

Its all very well saying that our workers should be paid more etc etc and then continue to buy items from India, China etc

@niceguy2 - you suspect wrong, as it happens.

I don't see how you can say you are trying to bring balance when you say that life was 'pretty damn shit' as though it's fact when those of us who were around then can say that no, there was good and bad.

Nor would I agree that your statement
I think everyone now agrees that union power was out of control and they needed taming. is suggestive of balance.

And as for
To me that is just stupid and naive. is not exactly balanced.

Desperately - of course not - but you can compare training Pol-Pot's troops, using the Army and the Police as agents of the state against democratic protest, giving the shoot to kill orders in Gibraltar etc etc. Demonising Homosexuality, supporting Apartheid, and supporting and funding Saddam to the tune of over a £1 billion, in Pakistan for supporting General Zia ul Haq's military dictatorship, or how about General Suharto of Indonesia, whose invasion and occupation of East Timor in 1975 resulted in the deaths of around 250,000 men, women and children on the island resulted in the public support of Thatcher as "one of our very best and most valuable friends".

@lavolcan

Everyone has their own little stories based on their situation and those around them. Some will have done well out of the old system, some badly. And vice versa. That's why personal anecdotes cannot truly be representative of what happens/happened. But the official stats are undeniable. We were a basket case. Find me some official stats to show that the UK was sound economically. Show me facts & figures that show we were doing just fine and change was unnecessary.

And my 'stupid & naive' comment was with regards to the idea of blaming someone for something that either hasn't happened yet or something that happened over two decades ago which no government since has repealed or blaming someone without any facts. Are you suggesting that is an act of intelligence?

@Luckybarsteward Capitalism hasn't been perfect. Far from it. Personally i think it's very wasteful and unless one day changed may well doom our planet by plundering our valuable resources to make useless crap like rubber dog shit or building cars which go 200mph at 3MPG.

But...when compared to socialism it's way better. When the day comes where someone invents a system which is fairer to everyone than capitalism then I'm all for it. Until then I'd rather stick with the imperfect capitalist markets than risk going backwards.

I think if you want an opinion on someone, you should, at least, be able to spell their name.