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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think you can have an opinion on Maragret Thatcher regardless of when you were born?

166 replies

NewStartInSpring · 15/04/2013 02:59

Sorry I know people are sick of MT threads. However this one isn't about whether you are happy/sad she died or whether she did have good/bad policies etc.

I have seen quite a few people say that your opinion (regardless of what it is) isn't valid if you were not born during the time MT was Prime Minister.

Aibu to think this is ridiculous?

Surely if you believe that then the majority of us wouldn't be able to express an opinion on Hitler for example.

OP posts:
CogitoErgoSometimes · 15/04/2013 09:44

@Dawndonna... Socialism in the 70's was awful Hmm. Full-on, unfettered socialism failed in the 70's as completely as full-on, unfettered capitalism ultimately failed in 2008. Extremes usually do.

niceguy2 · 15/04/2013 09:45

Well in my opinion it is Dawndonna. And thankfully it seems the rest of the world has seen the light. The only socialist utopia's left seem to be North Korea and possibly Cuba. The latter of which is starting to introduce free market reforms too.

You may think socialism wasn't that awful but it was socialist policies which gave us the winter of discontent and the UK needing an IMF bailout.

Who ran the country during the 70's? Because it wasn't the government. It was the unions. They'd pop into Downing street for a cup of tea whenever they liked and if the PM didn't cave to their policies, they'd call immediate strikes and bring down the government.

Thatcher stood up to them. She put the government back in charge. She left the country in a prosperous once more with balanced books and had increased public spending year on year and in real terms.

Yes people hated her for breaking the unions, specifically the miners but as I've said before the real hatred should be directed towards Scargill, not Thatcher.

LadyMountbatten · 15/04/2013 09:47

NO i think you cant understand the emotion she evoked.

Its pissing me off a bit tbh

LadyMountbatten · 15/04/2013 09:48

plus you cant realise how BAD it was pre Thatcher. the country was on its knees.
it wasnt better then and she ruined it. We are all thatcherite and dont realise it

Moominsarehippos · 15/04/2013 09:50

Things we grim before her (during and after). Britain was seen as very weak, the Unions strong, and the economy knackered.

LadyMountbatten · 15/04/2013 09:54

Endless strikes for spurious reasons. International financial crises

limitedperiodonly · 15/04/2013 09:57

Of course you can. As long as you don't express a negative view.

If you're a young person who wants to quote from one of the many hagiographies that are springing up all over the shop, go right ahead.

It's a bit bemusing that even those of us who are old enough to have lived through Thatcherism are told that we don't know what we're talking about if we're not fans.

LaVolcan · 15/04/2013 09:58

niceguy2 - Miner's strike of 1972? Postal Workers Strike 1971? "Socialist" Government? No, Ted Heath, Conservative. Who ran the country then? Well, the voters did decide 'not you, Ted Heath'. Wilson had to form a minority government and then went to the country again in October '74 gaining a very slender majority. Hardly a "socialist" mandate, and absolutely nothing like North Korea or Cuba.

Did she leave the country prosperous? I recall devastation in the steel industry in the early 1980s which helped to put paid to at least two marriages that I know of. Maybe their marriages wouldn't have lasted, but I know that severe unemployment didn't help.

LaVolcan · 15/04/2013 10:02

It's a bit bemusing that even those of us who are old enough to have lived through Thatcherism are told that we don't know what we're talking about if we're not fans.

Absolutely agree.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 15/04/2013 10:02

I was doing some research on nationalised industries recently and was surprised to find that British Steel alone cost £1.2bn (those were the posted losses) in the four years up to 1980. What that would be in today's money I don't know but when people squeal about the bank bail-out in 2008 and how failing banks should have been left to go under, it's worth bearing in mind. Steel, coal, shipping, telecoms, utilities ... almost everything was getting a bail-out on a regular basis by the end.

LaVolcan · 15/04/2013 10:08

However, steel, coal, shipping were helping to produce things.

Utilities - why in heaven's name was it bad for them to be owned by the UK government but is apparently fine to be owned by the French Government?

niceguy2 · 15/04/2013 10:17

The steel industry, coal and quite a few other industries were in decline anyway. No government could have propped them up indefinitely.

I think everyone now agrees that union power was out of control and they needed taming.

Had they have taken a cooperative approach with management like the German's do then I'd be much more in favour of them. But they didn't and they were more bothered about political influence than the long term welfare of their members.

Tanith · 15/04/2013 10:17

I think the pro-Thatcher fanatics are also re-writing a lot of history.

I even heard someone trying to credit her with the rise of television the other day! A bit like crediting Disraeli with the increased usage of the telephone, I think Grin

What angers me, what I really object to, is the almighty fuss distracting everyone from some of the most unpleasant benefit cuts ever introduced by any Government aimed at our most vulnerable members of society.

Quite frankly, I think Cameron et al heaved a huge sigh of relief that she died when she did. There's plenty of nasty news to be buried along with her and she's diluted the headlines for them.

niceguy2 · 15/04/2013 10:18

They'd have been helping to produce things had they been making a profit. In reality they were hindering by needing bailouts which ultimately drives costs up for everyone else. Do you not understand that?

MTSgroupie · 15/04/2013 10:18

I find it amusing that the people having a go at Thatcher for letting market forces destroy Industries like mining, steel etc are the same people going on about the banking bail out.

Thatcher is being blamed for not continuing to bail out declining industries and recent governments are being flamed for bailing out banks that would have collapsed otherwise. Hardly a consistent perspective.

MTSgroupie · 15/04/2013 10:21

I find it amusing that the people having a go at Thatcher for letting market forces destroy Industries like mining, steel etc are the same people going on about the banking bail out.

Thatcher is being blamed for not continuing to bail out declining industries At the same time recent governments are being flamed for bailing out banks that would have collapsed otherwise which would have sent the economy into a tailspin. Hardly a consistent perspective.

AuntieStella · 15/04/2013 10:21

Yes, she did leave the country prosperous - that was her great success: John Major did OK, and the national books looked better than they had done at any point post War. Unfortunately, New Labour took that amazing opportunity and left us with quite a different legacy.

Heath was indeed unable to govern effectively; the role of the unions (described eloquently by Red Ken of all people in a TV interview last week) made it impossible for a Tory wet to effect change and Wilson/Callaghan did not oppose the TUC agenda at all. And in those days there was no requirement to ballot at all before a strike (let alone a secret one) nor a ban on strikes in sympathy, nor on secondary picketing.

Dawndonna · 15/04/2013 10:27

Why with the tories is there no inbetween. It's either them or communism. Socialism and communism are different, as you are obviously unable to recognise.

JuliaScurr · 15/04/2013 10:34

'prosperous'?
oh, my sides
been to Rotherham lately?

CogitoErgoSometimes · 15/04/2013 10:37

Socialism and communism may be different but that didn't prevent some of those high up in the unions at the time following a blinkered communist agenda of bringing down the government. Bob Crow today has a similar approach for example. Looking back I think it's a pity they took that stance because, by setting up a conflict to maintain the status quo at all costs, they not only contributed to running things into the ground but also missed a big opportunity to manage the decline and replace the heavy industry with something more modern long-term. That would have benefited workers.

LaVolcan · 15/04/2013 10:38

niceguy2 - do I not understand? On the contrary I think the issues are by no means as black and white as you seem to think.

You think that everyone agrees that Union power needed taming - you don't seem to realise that there are shades of opinion within unions. You instance Germany - you appear to forget that the Germans also have a much better quality of management than British Industries traditionally did, and that they have worker's councils which the management respect.

LaVolcan · 15/04/2013 10:45

AuntieStella - Heath a wet and not able to govern effectively? Undoubtedly, but Heath was a Tory.

So it's far, far too simplistic to say: Labour = 70s strikes. It can just as easily be said Conservatism = 70s Strikes.

ChocolateCakePlease · 15/04/2013 10:47

I think the only way forward for those who dispise her is to forgive.

Forgiveness is not to say what the person did was right or ok, it is to say "i am not going to let what you did to me effect me anymore."

To not forgive just means you are the prisoner forever and those who are complaining of "Thatcherism" living on are the very ones keeping it alive.

I find the "dancing on graves" and celebrations a very odd way to show how much you hated her. To me a much more effective way of showing your discust of her would be silence. Complete silence. That speaks much louder and shows you will not waste energy caring that she has died.

Thatcher would have been amused as well as sad at the protests, especially at her funeral because she knew that to be an effective politition you will make enemies along the way so good or bad, the protests just show she was an effective politition. What she would have hated more is to be egnored, for people to just go about their daily lives during her funeral without even so much as a mention of her. Protesting and celebrating would just be playing into her hands.

So if you want Thatcherism to die along with her ashes, forgive and get on with the rest of your life.

(I am not a preacher of any religion when i speak of religion.)

ChocolateCakePlease · 15/04/2013 10:49

(I am not a preacher of any religion when i speak of forgiving.)

niceguy2 · 15/04/2013 10:54

Well those opinions are now respected thanks to laws which have been introduced to ensure strikes can only be called when members have voted for it. Back in the day, the leaders just called a strike whenever they wanted to. Then they'd call their mates who led unions in an unrelated industry and brought them out on strike in sympathy. Hard to manage effectively in those circumstances isn't it?