to be furious with myself! What should I have said? (Ivf)

[Manyofhorror3]

I went out last night with some of the mums from nursery. It's the first time we've ever got together and we were having a pleasant evening until one of the women mentioned that her neighbour was having IVF. Then another woman suddenly said "I think it's wrong and interfering with nature." There was a short discussion about how nonsensical an argument that is, and she kind of agreed but then kept saying "we'll sorry but that's what I think."
I'm normally quite chatty but I was dumbstruck and to my shame, made an excuse and left. My children are the result of fertility treatment, after years of heartache and although I've never discussed it with any of the school mums, I hate the thought of being judged in such a way, and worse, that my children might be treated differently.
This woman has changed her hours at work and will be doing the school run more and I can barely look at her!
What should have I said? I'm so cross with myself for bolting like that!

Live in the woods. Or savannah or veldt, depending on preference and geographical location

If you feel like you'd need to say something you could just pipe up "I understand you have a moral objection to IVF but you should consider yourself in the minority and next time think about how you might hurt those around you who suffer with fertility problems. Now is not the time or the place for an argument on IVF."

Please don't feel too upset by her, clearly she was ignorant for just coming out with it with no thought for those around her but I assume if she knew you or anyone else there had IVF she would have kept her mouth shut. A lot of people don't know how common it is nowadays and I'm sure she wouldn't have said anything if she knew... And equally I am positive if she did find out about your children she wouldn't think any different of them.

It'd be more the moral argument of doctors playing God than about women desperate for babies.

Do remember that the Catholic church is against IVF - her views are not totally unheard shocking, but thankfully in the minority xx

I am not sure it can be compared to homophobia or racism actually.

The woman was disagreeing with a process not discriminating against a person.

To compare it with those is a bit sensationalist and IMO is just shit stirring.

I do think well that's my view without any further explanation is not right.

If a person said there view is based on religion or any other valid reason then you could respect that person view.

Am laughing out loud at Jesus's "grub up with a stick" post!

She is entitled to an opinion. Her opinion however is bullshit and she is clearly pretty ignorant to have assumed that nobody around the table had been through IVF or was considering it due to fertility problems. It's fine to bleat on about nature if you've never been through the heartache of long-term ttc but I would imagine she'd reconsider if she was in your position.

I assume she walked there wearing clothes she'd made herself from natural materials and spent the evening eating food she'd foraged and fruit juices she'd squeezed from fruit she picked. Then went home to her lovely warm cave. Thought not.

It's not your job to educate her but if you are really kicking yourself and struggling to make eye contact then maybe a quiet word to explain, in a friendly way, your position and how hurtful you found her comments. After all you're entitled to your opinion as well.

She is small minded and likely nothing anyone says will change that.

If you will socialise with her more going forward maybe be armed with a couple of sentences that let her know it is not very sensitive of her to continue with her line of argument but without having to go in to full discussion if you don't feel comfortable with that.

Tbh she has probably made herself look a tit in front of the other mums.

I didn't vote for President Mary Mc Aleese ( last irish president) because of her stated view on ivf. Lucky her with 3 naturally conceived children. How dare she deny others the wonder of motherhood.
She was a very good president though, most of the time ( she did anger Northern Unionists with some of her utterances)

Most medicine isn't leaving things to nature so I guess she'd rather people just died.

She certainy sounded quite ignorant. Her "it's what I think" statement does make it sound like she hasn't actually thought about it deeply at all, though she could also just be poor at debate if everyone else was against her. There are afterall quite a lot of moral issues raised by IVF - even most people who've had it haven't really thought about a lot of them in depth.

But I'm not clear why her opinion upset you (and I say this as a mother of IVF DCs). You, presumably are comfortable with the decision to use IVF. She doesn't think the process is "right". So what? Why do you care that that someone disagrees with your choices? Especially when her's is a minority opinion, so you have nothing to fear in terms of social pressure?

YABU to be furious with yourself. You are not obliged to defend IVF to the ignorant, listen to those who disagree with it or debate the subject with anyone. You don't have to talk to her at the school gate if you don't want to. You don't have to go out with any group with her in if you don't want to. Don't be upset with yourself, you did what you felt able to at the time.

You could try being tolerant of her different opinion. Not agreeing with it. Not letting her statements go unchallenged if you don't want to. Just accepting that she has a different opinion on this and that it doesn't actually affect you at all. The world still turns. Your DCs still grow and laugh and live. She sits in a bubble that would deny her that joy if she'd needed fertility treatment. While you live in one full of possibilities. You could even just feel sorry for her.

To me nature have giving us the knowledge to be able to ivf, develop chemo drugs and many other life saving technique.

It could be said bottle feeding goes against nature, as that what breast are for ( not my view I couldn't give a shinny shit how babies are fed)

The nature argument is just a load of tosh really

What a stupid thing to say ! There are some interesting arguments against IVF but going against nature isn't one of them!

YANBU but I would either practice some comebacks or grow a slightly thicker skin.You and your dp made your decision and now you have 2 lovely dcs. I went to work ft when both my dcs were under one, some people think that is wrong. I don't leave the table and cry when someone expresses an opinion that I have damaged my dcs, I just chuckle to myself at their misinformation.

It's medical treatment, same as any other kind of medical treatment, not a 'process'.

She sounds like a petty, small-minded, pretty stupid person. At least you've found out relatively early so you can steer clear.

hi armagh - what did mary mc aleese say? was it a RC point of view?

OP, YANBU - silly mare

Twas years ago. Yes RC line.

Treatment, process. Didnt realise we were being pedantic.

Process as opposed to person was the comparison. As in not a thing, but a series of events.

When I first started socialising with other mums I soon realised that often the only thing we had in common was that we had babies of similar ages. I found (what i considered ill informed) attitudes about all aspects of parenting infuriating. The choice was keep quiet or challenge them politely. I generally went down the challenge politely route but it didn't make me very popular. Especially as I then lived in a middle class area full of total idiots who didn't believe in MMR. I now can't be arsed with people's idiotic views (and don't expect any of my own to be humoured.)

That was incredibly thoughtless. I am very very lucky to have DC through IVF. Very, very lucky.

Imagine if someone said to you 'your children shouldn't have existed. They don't DESERVE to exist.'

How would that feel? Because, to me, that's what the woman was saying. That the OP's child and my children and millions of other children don't deserve to exist. All of us had so much heartache, often loads of cycles, desperately wanting a child. And then, when, finally, after years of struggling and desperation, we finally get a child or children (or get other children) we are told they shouldn't even exist. It hurts a lot, but ultimately, OP, try and think of it as an ultimately stupid, thoughtless comment from, probably, a thoughtless, stupid woman who hasn't considered her opinions deeply. You don't need to care about her, her opinion isn't worth anything. In a few days, you'll be smarting a bit an might not look at her in the same way, but in a few days it doesn't matter. And hopefully she'll get the hint and be a bit more thoughtful jn the future.

Our DS is IVF, ICSI and donor sperm and I have occasionally had people make negative comments. I ignore them obviously.

However, there are some people who object to IVF because you create embryos and then discard them or freeze them and then don't know what to do about them. Some people find this difficult, and I have some understanding for their views. I doubt this is what your friend meant, because she just sounds like one of those types to have very shallow views so you were probably right to say nothing.

She is a twit. But if you don't want to stand up to people like that because you want to keep things private that is fine, it is perfectly fine to be a private person. I think it does mean you have to accept sometimes biting your tongue/walking off though.

'Interfering with nature' ! If doctors hadn't 'interfered with nature' my son wouldn't be alive today, either I would have died of hyperemesis (like they believe charlotte bronte did), or he would have died at birth (I needed emcs) or he would have died at 6 months when he had anaphylactic reaction. I am now back in hospital waiting for doctors to treat me for hyperemesis the 2nd time! Thank goodness we interfere with nature! Enjoy your children and ignore the twits

I can understand her view to a certain extent, however it's probably not something I'd announce at a table full of women of childbearing age as I might not know their circumstances or their stories and I'm aware how controversial that view is. I would never however judge any woman who had IVF or think that their children did not deserve to be here, it's a wonderful thing for those who it works for.

For me, it's one of those things like gay marriage or abortion - if it's not likely to affect you directly, then bloody well keep your trap shut or just kindly support those who are affected by it. Yeah, you can 'have an opinion' but really, talk is cheap, and if it makes no odds to you, why would you risk hurting someone else by voicing your opposition?

You can 'have an opinion' without announcing it like that.

I would just disengage and if it comes up again, maybe a mild rebuke like a PP recommended: 'Well, we'll just have to disagree on this; it's a pretty emotive subject as my children are the result of IVF'.

holly may I ask - I don't understand what you meant about chemo or radiotherapy 'putting off the inevitable' - chemo can succeed, you know? Not picking, just genuinely curious what you meant!

I wasn't trying to be sensationalist btw, just that such a person might make comments to or about DD when she is old enough to understand them - and she can't help that she was donor-conceived/IVF. I can see why some feel these issues are private but my view is they should be discussed more as it is now a common form of treatment, but no-one not affected directly will know that if we all keep quiet. Not challenging it if I was going to spend time in a group with such a person would give me the same uncomfortable feeling as if they regularly came out with racist stuff if DD was mixed race (for example). In that case I think many people would think she should be challenged. That was why I made the comparison.

If 'it's against nature' is her only qualm against it then that is a pretty stupid to thing to say. I'm assuming she uses no contraception, she had no scans whilst pregnant and she had home births with no medical back up. So much of modern life goes 'against nature - driving, flying and electricity. My children are a result of IVF and although I am not religious, I have more respect for religious reasons against ivf than with the old 'it's against nature'

I do think some people do like the go against the grain, my personal hate is 'I speak my mind'. When pregnant with my IVF twins I a night out with friends, one of the girls there, friend of a friend who is very vocal with her stupidity said 'it goes against nature' to me when everyone else was congratulating me - I lacked your tact OP. I replied 'So is having a nose job and your ears pinned back (she'd had both) when nature intended you to be ugly and stupid.' Everyone laughed and she stormed off saying that IVF had turned me into a bitch.

She made a tactless, hurtful comment - I would not rise above it. I would rise above her and ignore her - easily done.

When you realise the people pissing you off are just stupid, it's easier to feel sorry for them.