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AIBU?

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AIBU to blame social science courses for some of this hatred of MrsT

312 replies

Grinkly · 13/04/2013 13:30

I did an OU foundation social science course once. A major part was the detrimental effects of redundancy and unemployment on individuals and the community. It was interesting and spelled out how lives can be devastated by this.

The example was a Yorkshire mining town. It was a good course but I wonder if those, unlike me, who weren't around at the time of the miners' strikes have got a skewed view of why things happened.

Billy Elliot touches on the strikes too I think. But no background info is given, as far as I remember.

Am just amazed at the vitriol - especially by those not directly affected. And it was a long time ago. Don't want to start another debate unless someone has a new point to make.

OP posts:
grovel · 13/04/2013 22:55

Dawndonna, no problem. I don't think we'd agree on much if we met for a coffee - but I do instinctively like you (stupid on the net - as I keep warning my DS!). This is what AIBU is about.

Blu · 13/04/2013 22:59

There was clause 28, the Falklands war and the sinking of the Belgrano ( traveling away from out ship, and not within the zone MT had declared an Exclusion Zone). The deregulation of the banks - the prehistory of our current financial ruin, sky high interest rates and houses being re-possessed left right and centre, people unable to move because of negative equity.

And being told off all the time. No jobs , but all you had to do was 'get on your bike'. That was Tebbit, but it just felt as if we were told off and shouted at non stop

Oh, and when things got tough Mark would get lost in the desert and case a distraction. And Dennis made his money from a business that amongst other things manufactured human shackles for the apartheid regime.

Just a few aspects of the 12 years.

nonameslefttouse · 13/04/2013 23:09

Well throw me my rose tinted glasses! The 70's saw a massive decline in manufacturing this wasn't down to Mrs Thatcher is was down to market forces and being on strike for the wrong biscuits in the canteen! The unions should be held accountable for their part in the decline we were the sick man of Europe in actual fact a sodding joke!

The miners strike scargill has a hell of a lot to answer for and he's still trying to screw what's left on the miners out of their union money.

The state was far too big we even owned Pickford removals none of the state organisation cared if they made money, lost money or even broke even because the tax payer picked up the tab and tab that just couldn't afforded. Business generates money not governments

My credentials born and bred in a northern mining village grandfathers miners father a steel worker all of which on strike all of which bought their council houses, I left the town as soon as possible!

applepieinthesky · 13/04/2013 23:09

I was born in 1987 so have no memory of Thatcher in power. I grew up knowing my dad despised her mainly due to the miners strikes and how difficult she made things for the working class. I have formed my own opinion from her support of Pinochet and the Apartheid system in South Africa.

FarBetterNow · 13/04/2013 23:11

I think whatever evidence you all give Grinkly she will never understand why there is such vitrioloc feeling against MT, because she really doesn't want to.

After reading some of her replies on pages 2 - 3, I really thought she was a troll, but she isn't.

difficultpickle · 13/04/2013 23:25

The other thing to remember in all of this talk about the miners' strike is Scargill brought the miners out on strike without having a ballot, in breach of his own union rules.

doubleshotespresso · 13/04/2013 23:29

You are being unreasonable yes. And also ridiculous-

it was a good course......... But maybe gave us a skewed view of why things happened

What exactly skewed your view? MT annihilated communities up and down the land. If that's your understanding then I guess I'd agree the course was good.

LaVolcan · 13/04/2013 23:34

I am not aware of any one on this thread supporting Scargill. Its a pretty poor excuse if all you can say is that Thatcher wasn't bad because he was worse!

Business generates money not governments
We have had constant privatisations since Thatcher got in. Why isn't the country rolling in money now then?

difficultpickle · 13/04/2013 23:37

I must have misred all the posts blaming MT for the miners' strikes Confused. MT did a lot that was wrong but the one thing she did right was breaking the power of the unions. I remember life in the early 1970s and described it to ds is the same age I was during the three day week. He couldn't believe I was talking about the country he lives in.

grovel · 13/04/2013 23:39

doubleshotespresso, she also gave opportunities to millions. If you lived near the M4 as IT companies began to invest, life was magic. They invested because they wouldn't be blitzed by tax or fucked over by unions. Good, well-paid, safe jobs.

LaVolcan · 13/04/2013 23:49

Where are these good well paid safe jobs now then? Gone down the pan in the economic meltdown since 2008. Why did that economic meltdown happen? Unions? No, the greed of the financial sector. Who deregulated the financial sector back in the 1980s? Must be that bete noire Arthur Scargill. Er no, your friend Mrs Thatcher.

difficultpickle · 13/04/2013 23:54

I really am amazed at how MT, who left office in 1990, is so directly responsible for every single thing that has happened in the following 23 years. Maybe I only imagined a Labour government? God, how I'd love to wake up and realise that Tony Blair was just a bad dream.

fishcalledwonder · 13/04/2013 23:55

I don't understand why the OP keeps suggesting you have to have been directly affected by thatcher's policies in order to hate everything she stood for. I'm sure you have pretty strong feelings about people like Mugabe?

LaVolcan · 13/04/2013 23:58

Well, of course, some would say that Blair was just Thatcher MkII. (Not as shrill, I grant.)

My Dad had been a lifelong Labour supporter but Blair managed to turn him.

nonameslefttouse · 14/04/2013 00:19

Why are we not rolling in money, simple, 15 years of Labour! At the end of every term in office the country is bankrupt!

My reference to scargill, Mrs Thatcher is constantly blamed and flamed for the miners strikes, this man is far more accountable to the strikes and like I said is still trying to screw the miners today! Strange he hasn't spouted his vile since her death!

The banks were deregulated in the 80's become open to everyone the average person could now invest! Please tell me we went further with deregulation just after all our gold reserves were sold at asda prices!

OxfordBags · 14/04/2013 00:23

Most of the Mrs T haters, or indeed the general population, aren't intelligent enough to go on to higher education, ReallyTired? You're seriously willing to humiliate yourself by saying something as snobby and immature as that? Wow. I think you're getting the Tory fixation with making HE accessible only to the wealthy confused with the reality of non-socio-economic-determined intelligence and desire for erudition.

Love the irony of you saying that, btw, despite making two spelling mistakes in your opening line alone...

doubleshotespresso · 14/04/2013 00:27

grovel she did not create opportunity for millions- she made the rich richer at the cost to everybody else.

I guess if you were an 80s arms dealer she created opportunities, struggling to see much else tbh......

LaVolcan · 14/04/2013 00:49

It's funny that those of you are spouting about how wonderful Thatcher was, have forgotten that it was her own party which gave her the boot, because she was an electoral liability.

nonameslefttouse · 14/04/2013 01:11

Not forgotten or forgiven but those that outed her were the elite privileged classes, something she was not!

Same old rhetoric!

sashh · 14/04/2013 02:53

Am just amazed at the vitriol - especially by those not directly affected. And it was a long time ago.

But many people are still affected and effected.

Have you tried to get on the housing ladder of find rented accommodation recently?

Remember the banks going tits up? They wouldn't if there had still been regulation.

My parents were lucky in that they had an open fire, but many people could not heat their houses due to lack of electricity.

Seriously? You do realise the 3 day week was the conservative government don't you?

And I remember the majority of people having coal or gas fire, and I mean the singular. Most people only heated one room, virtually no one had central heating.

The only places I can remember being 'all electric' were tower blocks.

Although I do believe there was a mini baby boom 9 months later, so I suppose adults had their own way of keeping warm.

LazarussLozenge · 14/04/2013 06:52

The three day week was caused by lack of coal/lack of electricty. It wasn't a government policy!

LazarussLozenge · 14/04/2013 06:54

Dawndonna Sat 13-Apr-13 22:39:36

Grovel, I've pmd you. I apologise fro the mistake above.

Lazaruss It's your comment I have reported.

Why not pm me? Rather than cut across the thread we can iron it out off line so to speak?

Grinkly · 14/04/2013 07:06

Well, the haters are still not acknowledging the horrors of living in Britain when she came into power - it's conveniently forgotten. So I do remember it, and how angry and frustrated those around me were with the dock strikes and powercuts etc, and helpless. The unions did as they pleased.
So although some posts have been enlightening I am not convinced of her evilness.
And as for not being able to buy or rent a house now due to Mad Maggie, well, are you saying that no labour government could do anything to 'fix' the things she did over the intervening 23 years? Confused

OP posts:
Grinkly · 14/04/2013 07:20

Should have also said I can now understand the vitriol of some from what's been posted on this thread.

OP posts:
LazarussLozenge · 14/04/2013 07:27

Blu Sat 13-Apr-13 22:59:24

There was clause 28, the Falklands war and the sinking of the Belgrano ( traveling away from out ship, and not within the zone MT had declared an Exclusion Zone). The deregulation of the banks - the prehistory of our current financial ruin, sky high interest rates and houses being re-possessed left right and centre, people unable to move because of negative equity.

And being told off all the time. No jobs , but all you had to do was 'get on your bike'. That was Tebbit, but it just felt as if we were told off and shouted at non stop...Blu

Ahem, a few points.

Tebbit NEVER said 'just get on your bike'. He told the masses that they may have to travel or move areas in order to find work. There was massive unemployment in pit towns, but other areas required workers.

People wanted to work on their door steps, in their home towns. The bike bit was in reference to Tebbit's dad, having to cycle a fair distance to feed his family.

Tebbit didn't tell people to 'get on their bikes', he told people what his dad had done. It was read as such by those who wished to use it as such. (I thnk Kipling says something about hearing your words twisted).

Tebbit, went to a state school, flew in the RAF and became a pilot for BOAC (remember them! :D ) before becoming an MP.

I wonder if the lefty hatred of these figures is more because they worked hard and achieved.

The Belgrano.

I get tired of listening to people trot out this twaddle.

The Argies had TWO battlegroups circling the Islands. The Belgrano (who had two destroyers in escort) and the Carrier 25 of May. The Argies were attempted to interdict the task force sent to liberate the Falklands.

The Carrier was never actually found by a sub (HMS Spartan IIRC), HMS Conqueror (as we all know) found the Belgrano.

She was a threat. She (and the destroyers) carried exocets. She carried 14inch (was it? Or 12in) guns that would have ripped through the Post war frigates, destroyers and otehr ships that we were using.

She had Armour, which would protet her against our guns and exocets.

Conqueror used WW2 torpedoes (over the modern ones) in order to defeat this armour which extended to a torpedo belt.

This thng about she was heading away or wasn't in the TEZ is rubbish, trotted out by people who don't know what they are talking about, but want to make out the sinking was in some way bad.

The ships involved were combatants. They can turn around quite quickly, their direction is meaningless. If they were on stations, they'd be doing loops anyway, so do we assume you can't attack them for 50% of the time?

Remember their weapons can be fired 360 degrees.

The Total Exclusion Zone. This wasn't a boxing ring affair, where the ships of the two nations would face up to each other mano el mano. t was an area of sea where other shiping was warned that there was a WAR happening.

It has no bearing on this incident. If we felt the need we could have steamed in to Bueno Aries harbour and started sinking ARA ships on the jetty.

The Carrier I mentioned earlier was attempting to interdict the fleet well in to the Atlntic. Well outside the TEZ.

Oddly the Argentine Navy have NEVER made a claim that the Belgrano was illegally sunk. They knew teh game and knew the rules. It seems to be hand wringers in this country and lunatics in theirs that trot out this drivvel.

As a side note. After the Belgrano the Argentine Navy NEVER went to sea again. This allowed our taskforce to unload and return the islands to their rightful owners (the Islanders) with undoubtedly less loss of life amongst OUR blokes.

That is win.

Also let's not forget other ARA ships that were sunk... but they are far less newsworthy, apparently.