AIBU to blame social science courses for some of this hatred of MrsT

[Grinkly]

I did an OU foundation social science course once. A major part was the detrimental effects of redundancy and unemployment on individuals and the community. It was interesting and spelled out how lives can be devastated by this.

The example was a Yorkshire mining town. It was a good course but I wonder if those, unlike me, who weren't around at the time of the miners' strikes have got a skewed view of why things happened.

Billy Elliot touches on the strikes too I think. But no background info is given, as far as I remember.

Am just amazed at the vitriol - especially by those not directly affected. And it was a long time ago. Don't want to start another debate unless someone has a new point to make.

It makes me so sad looking back, it all could have been so different. I was SO happy in 97, I did get that Tony Blair had changed things, I understood that the unions had been sidelined and re nationalisation was out, but I was so sad when it became apparent that TB was Thatcher #2, we wanted change, that's what we voted for.

Who to vote for to undo this damage? Not that it matters who I vote for, my aristocratic Tory MP has a 6 fig majority.

Poll Tax...

Wasn't this a response to several (ALL LABOUR) councils repeatedly over spending and thus taxing their own areas more?

It was also part of the Tory plan to get away from Rates. This was a tax levied against you based on the value of your house.

The Community Charge (as the 1989 Poll Tax was actually known) merely charged each adult in the area the same amount for services rendered.

That said OAPs and poorer people received lower charges.

Not a perfect system but better than Rates, and hardly worth all the agro we had at the time.

I often wonder if those youngsters currently 'protesting' and 'hating' Mrs Thatcher are merely thinking if there were riots about it 'it must be bad'. It wasn't really.

Scotland. Community Charge was rolled out in Scotland first because as part of the 'rates' tax there were periodic re-evaluations of the property value. There was massive uproar in Scotland after a re-evaluation (I'll let you decide which colour the local councils were - thus in charge of the re-evaluation), thus Scotland was just a mess that needed sorting. It had nothing to do with 'Maggie hating/not caring about the Scots'.

Regarding schooling Maggie won scholarships to both her grammar and uni. Her family would be lower middle class, middle middle class at best. That said, she was born in to a industrious family that worked for what they had, and believed in the Liberal (of the time) view of individual responsibility.

That so many were made unemployed is a shame, it really is. But Maggie was the just the smasher of the eggs, the one left holding the ball when the wheels started coming off. Our industrial base and our mines were PULLING THE COUNTRY DOWN. They couldn't be allowed to continue.

Not only that the Unions (several times in fact) collapsed democratically elected governments. I don't live in Britain so I can vote for whom I wish, and watch a bunch of chimps turn it over just because they dig coal.

Let's not forget the 3 day weeks and brown outs.

Most of those gobbing off at the moment weren't around when this was happening, most of the others I feel look back in a skewed fashion.

I don't vote Tory by the way.

LaVolcan Sat 13-Apr-13 19:48:30

She came from a working class background and worked her way up?

No she didn't. Her father was an Alderman and a business man - he owned the shop, not worked for the shopkeeper. Generally speaking - a big noise in the town.

She got to Oxford, fine, by her own academic efforts, but helped no doubt by a wealthy father who could afford to keep her at school and then finance university. No leaving school at 14 for her and then having to get a job to bring an extra wage to keep the family finances afloat. E.g. My grandmother's was widowed. She managed to keep my Dad at school until he was 16 but after that it wasn't an option, so no swanning off to Oxford for my Dad or my Aunt even though they were equally clever as Mrs T.

She could have deferred her Oxford studies and taken part in the war effort but she didn't. Don't forget she was the same age as the Queen, who did join up.

After University she married a wealthy man.

So let's have a bit less of this working class and worked her way up, because that's just about the last thing she did.
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LaVolca

Her dad started as an apprentice grocer and built up the business of two shops. He worked n the shops. He had no higher ed. He was a alderman, in them days you ddn't need money to serve the community. He was also a 'big noise' in the Methodist church.

She gained scholarship to Grammar, and then on to Uni. She was only given a place at Uni when anothe rstudent dropped out.

She went to Oxford... Elizabeth joined up. So what. I'll just dig up Barnes Wallis and a number of other 'brains' who should have been storming Normandy and pillery them for you.

She went to Oxford in 1943, the war could have gone for years for all they knew.

What's YOUR service history btw?

Dawn, you get into Grammar school by passing the 11 plus (or similar) - not because you are rich (or you did, not the same now).

Excellent OP.

Also being middle class in those days isn't being middle class nowadays.

In those days tories were toffs, ie real landowning gentry type of toffs, so MT was a commoner. That is why it is so amazing that she got in at all as party leader.

Should have said torie MPs were toffs, not all tories

Lunatic Fringe "Ok so maybe Indira Gandhi? Yup divided opinion there.

Blair and Obama divide opinion. Putin? Berlesconi? Pinochet? Chavez?

Too simplistic an argument."

I don't understand your point. I said where are the male figureheads who have attracted the same level of vitriol. I was talking about mysogyny. Your response doesn't answer that at all.

Oh well. Just that your response came right after me talking about divisive leaders. I'm glad I checked cos I thought you were a nut.

LazarussLozenge, MT was paid for at Oxford by a scholarship and by Grantham council. The Principal of her college (Somerville) confirms this in the Times today.

So why do you post this falsehood?

I'm amazed at all that MT personally did whilst she was in power. I had no idea at the time how omnipotent she was. Had I realised I may well have voted for her. My recollection of her time in office was that a lot of people were actively involved too.

I listened to Any Questions on Radio 4 today. One of the panellists, I think it was Alan Johnson, said he had the right to buy his council house but chose not to do so. His reason was that he thought at the time having access to a house had enabled him to raise his family and by buying his house he would have deprived those following on from doing the same. Interesting perspective from a Labour MP, former minister and former union leader.

I know people who bought their council houses and they considered it their god-given right to do so. They refused to listen to those of us who pointed out that they were depriving people of the opportunity to live in social housing. At the time the right to buy was introduced it was mooted that the money would be used to fund new housing but I remember the debate that the government wouldn't end up doing that. Didn't stop my friends buying their house at all and from an economic point of view it took me over 20 years to catch up with them in terms of housing despite having a well paid job.

I'm well aware of how you get into grammar school, however, Kesteven and Grantham Girls school was a fee paying school at the time of her attendance.

Yes, Dawndonna, and she won a scholarship to Kesteven too. Her Dad paid a small contribution. Why do you never check stuff?

Just Google "Thatcher Kesteven Scholarship". It's not hard.

Grovel
I've reported your last comment. You have lost your right to answer with your ADHD Kids comment.

womenshistory.about.com/od/thatchermargaret/a/Margaret-Thatcher.htm

Apparently she taught in the summer months in order to supplement her scholarship.

Worth noting that her parents took separate vacations, so that shop didn't have to close. Normal probably for a hardworking family, who's father started work at 13 to help support his family...

Grovel, I've pmd you. I apologise fro the mistake above.

Lazaruss It's your comment I have reported.

I doult that a soical sciences course causes hatred of Maggie. Most the Mrs T hatersUK population don't have the intelligence to go to university or any other sort of higher education.

The country was in a huge mess. There was a 3 day week due to power cuts and constant strikes. My father had to walk eight miles in the snow because of a train strike. Our family had two small children and the power cuts made hard to heat the house. My parents were lucky in that they had an open fire, but many people could not heat their houses due to lack of electricty.

The unions could not give a shit about anyone and just wanted to bring the country down. I feel that Mrs T did the right thing to break the power of the unions. The miners suffered as much as anyone as many of them were bullied into "striking".

We all feel sorry for the miners and the shipworkers who lost their jobs. The north of england has never recovered and no subsequent governant has given them help. It is unreasonable to blame Mrs T for unemployement in mining areas 20 years later. Its up to Dave Cameron and Nick Clegg to help mining communities. Labour did nothing to help the ex miners.

The country is divided into those who loved Mrs T and those hated her as her domestic policies were very devisive. Mrs T achieved a lot internationally. She brought an end to the cold war by getting Regan and Gobertrov to talk to each other and disarm. It is possible that she prevented nuclear war and saved many lives.