To think Andrew Wakefield has blood on his hands for causing so much distrust over the MMR?

[chicaguapa]

That's it really. He's caused so much damage with his stupid little study. It was years ago, he was struck off, the study was discredited, but people still don't get the MMR because of it.

However, one of the possible recorded side effects of the MMR is encephalitis (which is also a complication of measles) which can cause deafness. So there would certainly be a case to answer if deafness appeared to follow illness after vaccination.

come on then armchair vaccine damage experts, lets have your explanation for what has happened to these kids.

you say you know what it is not. be good enough to tell us what you know is happening.

im sure the parents you think you claim you know better than will be grateful for your diagnosis of their children.

Which kids do you mean, beachcomber?

Children don't just regress spectacularly overnight, losing many acquired skills without something acting as a trigger for that to happen.

'However, one of the possible recorded side effects of the MMR is encephalitis (which is also a complication of measles) which can cause deafness. So there would certainly be a case to answer if deafness appeared to follow illness after vaccination.'

Parents who tried to bring a case, often had their legal aid withdrawn. I remember reading about it at the time. This appears to me to be an attempt by the government to silence any suggestion that their child could be vaccine damaged.

"Children don't just regress spectacularly overnight, losing many acquired skills without something acting as a trigger for that to happen."

Sadly, sometimes they do.

disintegrative psychosis is an accepted consequence of measlesencephalitis and rubella virus is implicated in the development of autism so it is hardly crazy talk to say that a vaccine which contain these two elements could trigger the condition. just as seeker uses the example of deafness.

Where is the rubella virus implicated in the development of autism?

Lottie You're right that the MMR vaccine can cause encephalitis - the chance is 1 in a million. However, if the child contacts measles, the chance of encephalitis is 2,000 times greater. I know which odds I prefer.

Rational - yes but as I said before - the risk is different for all children. That's why it's a hard decision to make iyswim. So although on average a child will be better off with the risk of the vaccine it may not always be the case.

Seeker, you believe that people can become brain damaged overnight? Honestly? Where is the evidence that this can happen for no reason?

Lottie, regressive autism has considered by some to be a recognised condition for many years.

None of the cases in the GMC or the US omnibus hearings were fine one day and regressed spectacularly over night.

Beachcomber. where is your epidemiological evidence to back up your argument? No one disputes that Autism is on the rise but the research evidence does not support the the cause is MMR.

There are over 700 cases of measles in South Wales now.

in utero rubella has long been known to cause autism. sorry for very short replies am at hospital with my dd and on phone.

I've only read the OP but I was saying to dh the other night the government could technically prosecute him for the damage to public health in the same way they'd take action over oil spills etc

I would be more inclined to blame the people who removed the single vaccine at a time where there was so much media hype about the MMR. It was still available on the NHS when Wakefield mentioned it at the press conference.

'Lottie, regressive autism has considered by some to be a recognised condition for many years.'

My dd regressed but she always had a bit of an uneven profile. Imitated, waved bye bye, pointed and then stopped. A child who can talk and acts totally NT, who then becomes obviously brain damaged is an entirely different case and cannot be dismissed as oh that's just how autism presents.

Damn right my only hope is that science gcse picked this up 7 years ago and i hope the next generation is better educated.

My appologies i have only read the first page but strong feelings on this!!

You are right that congenital rubella syndrome can cause autism! Which is why one study shows that vaccinating with MMR prevented over 6000 cases of autism in the USA over a 10 year period! There is no epidemiological evidence linking or supporting autism to MMR!

Anyone remember a play called "Hear the Silence" starring Juliet Stevenson as a doughty feisty mum fighting for "justice" for her autistic child? Andrew Wakefield became her saviour,and,played by Hugh Bonneville,was portrayed as a saintly pioneering hero. In the closing scenes she is seen railing and swearing at a doctor trying to persuade her to have her second child vaccinated against measles. An article in the Guardian the next day said the entire play was a travesty,and that the writer and cast should share some blame if children died in the future as a result of a measles vaccine boycott. That was nine years ago....those involved in the play must look back with embarrassment.

Lottie,
You wrote:
"'Beachcomber- the simple fact remains that no properly conducted scientific study has ever shown a link between MMR and autism. None.'
I doubt one will ever be conducted - who will fund it? The goverment? I doubt they will since it's not in their interests to find anything which would cause concern. In the past, parents who have tried to get compensation for severe reactions following the MMR (and vaccine damage is not limited to a regression to autism either) had their legal aid withdrawn.
And it is insulting and dismissive of parents to refuse to believe what they know to be true about their own children. It is dismissive to imply you will assume they're lying or looking for something to blame until you can see a study which supports what they say. Which is never going to happen for the reason I stated above."
How many studies do you want?
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7610.2005.01425.x/full

www.bmj.com/content/322/7284/460

europepmc.org/abstract/MED/9643797

www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa021134

pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/108/4/e58.short

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X01000974

These are just six of the many, many studies that have been done on looking at a possible causative link between MMR and autism (some of which include looking at inflammatory bowel disease) that you can find by searching on Google Scholar for "MMR autism".
scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?start=0&q=MMR+autism&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5
If you read even just the abstracts it makes it abundantly clear that none of these trials have found a causative link with the MMR.
You say that stating that people like me are being "insulting and dismissive" of the parents is snippy untrue. You could be more correctly be accused of, with posts like the above, being insulting and dismissive of the many hundreds of scientists who have worked long and hard to investigate the causes of autism, inflammatory bowel disease and any possible link with vaccination. Just because the dozens of studies available contradict your preconceived ideas.
Cheers.

PS simply, not snippy! Autocorrect...

I imagine they look back on it with a sadness that the parents and children never got the answer or justice they deserved and a rueful dissatisfaction that the issue of rising prevalence of autism has not been satisfactorily addressed. I imagine they are concerned that the issue has become so polarized and that good doctors have been vilified. I imagine they are concerned that the political nature of the controversy may well obstruct and delay help to children/young adults who are disabled. I imagine they are delighted that the bowel issues and their involvement with autism has been recognised widely and that the issues of how to prevent autism and treat people who suffer profound disability are not forgotten. Autism is a significant and urgent issue in the UK and the US - the investigation into the possibility of an environmental insult as a cause of autism must continue. The tragedy is that a corruption/fraud narrative was created by a journalist and subscribed to by the GMC but later much of it was dismissed by the High court as an unsustainable fiction. Nonetheless, some people still subscribe to a story that has been largely discredited by Justice Mitting and the High Court. There was no manufacturing or altering of results. Clinical need was the guiding principle in the treatment of the children. To this day no one seems to want to believe the narrative of the parents who lived with and know their children prefering a journalist's version. Hear the Silence listened to the parents stories. Sadly the title is still, in large part, apt.

Yes, I think he has.

But I also think think the government should have been more sympathetic to parents who were concerned and offered individual vaccinations, instead of decreeing from on high.

There have been enough cases of government says its ok, turning out not to be ok a few years later, that it is reasonable that people don't always trust them. And it is difficult taking a perfectly healthy baby/young child to go and have an injection - at the very least a sore arm/leg, maybe a fever for a couple of days (which is a long time to worry about your baby) - no one wants to put their child through that.

The government should have put getting high enough levels of vaccination first rather than being so inflexible.