Are SAHMS discriminated against. Red magazine are doing an article about it.

[Darkesteyes]

Just seen this on twitter.

Are stay at home mums discriminated against? Are you one and unhappy with benefits, or feel judged? Tell us.
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I think this thread is asking the wrong question.

The question should be "Are mothers discriminated against?"

We all know that across the board, women earn on average 15% less than men. Only 8% of women earn more than £40,000 pa.

Women make up the majority of those in low paid work.

It is estimated that around a million women are missing from the workforce because of a lack of flexible work opportunities.

Mothers who work outside the home are discriminated against in the workplace through the perception that they don't put their jobs first and are more likely to seek flexible working arrangements.

One in seven mothers are made redundant after maternity leave, 40% suffer a cut in hours or demotion. Research shows that around 30,000 mothers lose their jobs each year through pregnancy discrimination.

Women who give up work to become full-time carers of their own children are castigated for "not paying tax" and "not contributing to society" despite working for nothing in a role which, if carried out for another family, would attract a salary of £350-450 a week live in, or £4-500 a week live out.

They face ongoing loss of salary, status and pension throughout their lives. Women's pensions are on average 62% of average male pensions.

They often take on unpaid caring responsibilities for other family members too.

[[http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/number-of-fulltime-unpaid-carers-hits-1m-in-england-and-wales-8497379.html The ONS said that 5.8 million people in England and Wales ? one in ten ? are providing unpaid care, a rise of 600,000 since 2001 and believed to be worth around £340 billion a year.

Of those around 3.7 million people provide free care for between one and 19 hours a week, 775,000 giving between 20 and 49 hours a week, and 1.4 million caring for more than 50 hours.

Frances O?Grady, the general secretary of the TUC, said most of ?Britain?s growing army of unpaid carers? are women]].

Full-time carers who make a choice to care for elderly or disabled relatives deserve our praise and support, and attract some financial support but this is far from adequate. However, women who choose to care full-time for their own children seem to invite nothing but criticism.

Women who are childminders or nursery workers are expected to do it for a pittance of around £4 an hour in the case of childminders, or little more than the minimum wage at best.

It says a lot about society's attitude towards women and children, and none of it makes comfortable reading.

Women do struggle whether working or not to be seen as equal to men. Often partners (almost all male) can agree that it will be OK if you go back to work but dont realise that consequently all the things they took for granted, clean house, food in the fridge, children picked up from school, play dates etc will have to the SHARED.

I honestly dont think they realise especially if they have been used to making meetings, going abroad at the drop of a hat etc without any checking with the other partner.

We have to sit down every Sunday going through diaries and every time my DH goes abroad he sends me a calender invite in Outlook saying he will be away. At very short notice he has to ask whether I can manage the pick up's for say 2-3 days on my own. Of course he doesnt share with his company that he needs to check with me and I respond very quickly but its really the only way to do it. Otherwise as a SAHP going back to work you will find you are doing both your old job and your new one without any additional help and that is very hard.

It is very clear I think that if you take a career break, give up to look after small children that you will be disadvantaged. If there is someone who is doing a role you are applying for and then you with a 5-10 year gap well it wont be a surprise to learn that you will need to really prove you are the better applicant.

And how would you do that? Well, you need to consider retraining, attending courses etc to increase the skills that your poential new employer would look for? You would also need very clear reasons why you have made the decisions you have made, its fine to stay at home if you can show you are the better for it from an employers point of view.

STDG

I totally agree with your post, however, whilst I agree that on occasion I have noticed society in general show disrespect towards sahm's, I don't let it bother me.
I think if your family grow up respecting yours and their choices you have done well, whether wohm or sahm. As long as your relationships are good, I can't see why you would need validation from anyone else.

STDG

I totally agree with your post, however, whilst I agree that on occasion I have noticed society in general show disrespect towards sahm's, I don't let it bother me.
I think if your family grow up respecting yours and their choices you have done well, whether wohm or sahm. As long as your relationships are good, I can't see why you would need validation from anyone else.

I really feel I need to stick up for parents who work full-time.
I'm in my late 20s and am the product of such a family. I'm fine. I really am fine. Please don't worry about me or about my emotional stability.I don't hate my mother parents for what they did to me and my siblings; we never for a second felt abandoned or that they didn't care about us. We were always their first priority. That was always clear. Them both working FT was normal life for us.

Yes, of course there were a few times we whinged at them that 'so-and-so's mother is always there after school to pick them up, why do we have to take the bus?' But it just meant that anytime either of my parents did manage to get an afternoon off work to do a pick-up, it was all the more special. (And this was in the days before mobile phones, so all the more unexpected, too.) Now that I'm grown up I appreciate even more all of the sacrifices they made for us as parents.

I agree that change needs to come from the inside. Fathers need to start demanding flexible working as their right. (I used to work for a European company where it was highly normal to hear that either Mrs. OR Mr. so-and-so had taken their year's paternal leave.) There will always be some jobs that cannot facilitate at least SOME working from home, but the vast majority can. Demand it. Demand it. Demand it. I did and it's worked out a fucking charm :)

You are absolutely right, morethanpotatoprints, and I am utterly comfortable with my choices now - but at that point in my life, I was suffering from depression and PND, and that did affect my perceptions and my confidence.

And everyone likes a bit of external validation from time to time too, I think.

parental not paternal :)

I agree with everything posted above, also I agree that I don't need any validation for my choices - you'll always find someone who has something unkind to say.

I learned the hard way when we chose to have 4 children that people couldn't help themselves but make comments, often unkind ones. I just had to learn to take it on the chin. At work I never talk about family otherwise it will be automatically assumed that if I am going home early or am off sick I am caring for children, whilst a male colleague would just be that - off sick or going home early to catch an early train. No questions asked.

The only time I get upset is when people make my children feel bad for having working parents - it has happened - however now that they are growing up they understand our reasons, and even the 6 year old has a sharp tongue.

One mum helping out on pancake day apparently asked him "aaww are you sad that your mum couldn't be here today?" - to which he replied "no, I am sad because the chocolate spread has run out - and I'd rather see my mum at home, thanks for asking" - or something along those lines!!!

Financially sahp are being clobbered.The gov clearly don't want sahp.

I worked in a team for a while in the early days and we rarely met. A number of them didnt know I had a child.........I didnt feel I wanted to share it with anyone, they were a bit judgemental. They often had calls set up for early evening, not ideal but not impossible if they were booked in advance and I get my DH to do the baths etc that day.

I did work for someone who was constantly trying to catch me out when I said the hours of 1800-1900 werent good for me (why did I ever say that!) Eventually went he sent out invites for calls at 18.30 I declined and suggested 2100. He then replied back that he would have had a few drinks by then so could we leave to the morning....

SDTG.

It must have been bad to have negative comments when you had pnd. i had it too with my middle one, but was lucky to have been sheltered from many people as lived in the stix then. .
I know this is a forum for discussion but find that most negative comments come from here and not in rl. I do think this always having something to say about how people decide to live is a recent thing, I can't remember it years ago. People just got on with life and accepted their lot, now so many people moan about their life or are bothered what their neighbour does

Kazooblue

In what way are sahps being clobbered? As far as I am aware our situation won't change irrespective of any Gov policies. I could be wrong though, or maybe its just some sahp's who will be affected.

mmmm I don't know, it depends how much you "stand out". Us with our 4 young children, foreign accents and working patterns living in a tiny rural village, seem to attract a lot of comments.

Less now that people are used to us but I remember when we moved here there wasn't one day that went by that someone didn't take a snipe and to be honest it did get me down a little at the time, although long term it has served to thicken the skin quite a lot.

Brilliant post, olgaga.

Posters commenting on how others shouldn't need 'validation' and should just be happy with their own choices etc are missing the point.

If you are discriminated against - denied real opportunities, equality of pay/workplace, find fhe work you do is devalued because it is 'women's work', forced to compromise in a way that dads rarely are - that IS a genuine, structural problem with society.

Please, read Olgaga's informative post upthread. 'validation' is misleading pseudo-psych speak here. Mothers bear the brunt of structural sexism. Please, do not label them as being 'needy' when they have the guts to point this out.

Actuall Kazoo make a good point. Does the gov not want SAHP's? It might be that they dont.

olgaga - I couldn't agree more.
The 'WOHM/ SAHM - which is best debate?' is just a distraction as far as I'm concerned - mothers are discriminated against full stop.
Particularly agree with your point about the unseen/unpaid levels of caring women provide whether they are in paid employment as well or at home full-time. Often it is these women who are holding families and communities together.

*rainrain8

The OP is asking about being a sahp not working. So a sahp wouldn't feel discriminated against in the workplace, wouldn't need to compromise in a way that a dad wasn't, necessarily. For e.g your comments have no bearing on my life, I have no intention of working or idea/ interest about discrimination in the workplace. Or have I missed something?

Also agree with others that women in general are discriminated against. Think back to family values in the post-Thatcher era. Single parents (mostly mothers) singled out and discriminated against. The 'only two parents, of opposite genders and preferably mum will stay at home' ethos. And now that it suits the government's austerity measures, the record has suddenly changed and they 'want to make work pay' by cutting SAHMs out of benefits like they are somehow of less value to society than other women.

It is for all of these reasons that DH and I absolutely share childcare. My DH applied for a flexible working pattern as soon as i returned to work full time, which allows him to take Monday afternoons off. Two other days i work shorter days to spend more time with DS in the evening. It shouldn't matter whether it's me or DH that's providing DS with the care, love and attention, providing that we both do so at different times as well as at times when we're together as 'traditional' family. But the simple practicalities of it are that I simply could not be both a mum and work full time if we didn't share these responsibilities. And i think that DS benefits from it. Our way is not the only 'right' way, and i agree wholeheartedly that while women are locked in disagreement with each other we will continue to live in a society that is rife with inequality.

Matana.

I totally agree that inequality is partly down to women in disagreement with each other. Whilst we are arguing we add fuel to debate,
I would add though where a wohm needs equality in terms of domestic responsibility and raising dc, I think its the same for sahm. I would be so unhappy if dh didn't treat me as an equal and provide the same, and he works.
It must be so soul destroying to be in a relationship that is unequal whatever your working position.

When I recruit I want to take people who can demonstrably do the job in question. A couple of year back I was happy to take people I thought could do it, or who might be able to do it with a bit of training. Now I have possibly 60 telephone calls and over 40 applicants if I advertise a part time admin job. The person I take on will almost inevitably be someone who is doing a very similar job very well at the moment. This is the risk that you take if you give up work and don't keep your hand in in some way while your children are small. One day a week, an evening job, some voluntary work may be enough, but please don't expect to be given the job when you have made a choice not to work at all for a lengthy period

I've been a FTWM and SAHM - became a SAHM when DD2 came along...
I think I am now more or less unemployable ...and I think we have to admit that one parent might have to take the main burden of childcare...unless you have family around to help out. And they shouldn't be penalised for that ...
Whatever is said about tax allowances and female independence I think we SHOULD be able to transfer our allowance to a DP/H/W -if it is OUR CHOICE. After all if I was looking for work (and I am half heartedly) I wouldn't be able to get JSA etc because they WOULD take into account DP's salary then....

With DD1 (an accident) I was 33 and doing a Phd in a lab which is the same as full time work...DD1 part-time in nursery from 3 months, full time for 5 months. DP had his own restaurant ...had to be there every day left at 9am and returned at midnight. If he didn't go to work we would have to close the restaurant (phone people up and cancel their bookings -don't think it would have been in business long).
At least once or twice a week I would pick DD1 up from Nursery at 6, feed her, do bedtime etc and then when DP came home at midnight go back to work for a couple of hours. On more than one occasion I went back and there were other Phd students still working (hadn't been home, had eaten dinner there). I would go in at weekends to move samples from one machine to another -(these are things that take literally days to run- and really I shouldn't have done it - dodgy from a health and safety POV - radioactive samples...with DD1 in pushchair) and other students would be there working ...I couldn't compete with that ...
One day I set up a big experiment - it had been running all day - cost at least £500 (and radioactive so disposal costs too)...an hour before it would be finished Nursery phoned me - DD1 had vomited could I go and pick her up asap? ... the guilt I felt asking if they could hold onto to her for 30 mins longer so I could salvage something - they wouldn't - my boss (very understanding) actually got it to a stage for me where it could be left (for 48+ hrs after vomiting) ...this was the thing that made me realise I really couldn't have it all - it wasn't fair on anyone (DD1, Nursery, my boss, me, even to the people who gave to the charity who were paying for the research).

I did get my Phd in the end but haven't got the same quality/quantity of publications as some of the others - they were more employable in a competitive field...and I really don't feel I can return that until my Dcs have left home (even now DP works less hours with less responsibility)...and by then (even now) I'm so out of date that my Phd will be worthless. Honestly (and I hate to say this) if I was an employer I would be less inclined to take on a 'mother' or even woman of childbearing age...
After I left I had DD2 ...and became a SAHM I feel there is very little respect for what we actually do ... even DD2(6) said it wasn't a proper job because I didn't get paid for it. It isn't easy...very monotonous - you are never off duty - always surrounded by your 'work' ...DP (and probably has a point) thinks I should bear the brunt of childcare responsibility cos I don't go to work . (Actually what amazed me most was the mess...if they are in childcare all day house doesn't get anywhere near as bad) and I found I wanted to spend time with DD1 more when I hadn't seen her all day - as SAHM I tend to not want to spend anymore time with them .
I do have more time - so I help out whenever I can at the school, am on the PTA , do the accounts for 3 local charities (one I get paid a small amount for a few hours work per week). If it wasn't for the parents (mainly SAHMs or on maternity leave) who run the committees eg the playgroup would have folded years ago (we do have WOM but they are often too busy to help much - or try but don't find time ...and that is no disrespect to them ).
SAHMs are important - as are FTWMs
I think some iconic feminist (maybe Germaine Greer) made a fantastic point once -about how feminism got it wrong - basically women go out to work so they can pay (mainly) other women a pittance to look after children and clean the house for them - and maybe it would be more equal for all women if one parent (not nec the mother) stayed at home and looked after the children and house...

I do think fathers get a raw deal. I don't believe it is always about the women getting a raw deal.

I can think of 3 examples in my team alone. All 3 fathers supporting the family as primary earner.

One was over from the US for two weeks. Spent afternoon tea breaks and evenings skyping with his children, talking about them, sharing photos. He missed them immensley , but wants to keep his wife at home with the children, so was sacrificing his time.

The other two work long hours and travel. When at home, do their share. They are exhausted but they have to do it so that the children have the mother at home, and one funds private schooling.

These fathers feel pressure, are exhausted and miss time with their children. But they don't complain .

Not sure what my point is, but I get fed up with the 'where are the fathers' rant. It isn't just mothers who feel unappreciated and undervalued.

Since becoming a SAHM I feel like an invisible woman. Yes, my world is smaller I go to the same places week in week out, I see the same people there but I'm interested in the same things as before and in fact I'd be better at work because I'm more focused.

but it's true about fathers my husband is a classic works so hard, people say I'm too soft on him but his job is more demanding than being a SAHM.

Thanks to those who appreciated my post above.

I feel this is a completely false debate, encouraged by the Government which wants us to be divided as a society into haves and have-nots, scroungers and skivers, deserving and undeserving, and now WOHM/SAHM.

We are encouraged to fall into this trap time and time again - who works harder, who contributes more, which choice is "best" - it's all beside the point, because the best choice is whatever works for you and your family.

All the while, apart from a handful of high-fliers, women are discriminated against and exploited, both financially and emotionally, at every stage of their lives.

Women who work in caring roles are undervalued because it is "women's work". Women who work outside the home are undervalued because as women with caring responsibilities - or the potential for them - they are considered less dependable or committed than their male counterparts.

Instead of fighting with each other about which of is discriminated against the most, we should be asking why discrimination against women in all its forms continues.

If you need any further persuasion about how undervalued women are in our society, The Fawcett Society website is a good place to start.