to be sad that my DD has now passed gender discrimination 101?

[ICBINEG]

My DD can now accurately pick out the boys and girls in her peer group (age 1-2). Presumably she has successfully identified that boys and girls are dressed differently/have their hair cut differently.

This is entirely due to adult imposed gender discrimination, as she a) isn't looking at them naked, b) can't possibly be detecting the very subtle actual differences in behaviour/appearance.

So lets hurry onto the next lesson:

Society expects girls and boys to behave differently and have different interests, strengths and weaknesses.

Before I could at least wonder if, when she saw in books that all the girls are doing different things to the boys, she might not realise which was which and specifically which group she was 'supposed' to be in. Now I know she will be learning exactly what is expected of her every time a tired old stereotype is rolled out.

morris but I am not going to stop my DD wearing pink if she wants to?

Why does feeling sad that she with soon be failing victim to peer pressure equate to forcing her to dress like a boy?

Actually we do read books to her with all the genders swapped....so everything from hungry catepillar to cave baby, to the gruffalo have been called 'she'. Not sure why all animal protagonists are male in the first place....

In fact I heard DH reading cave baby last night and it was mum being brave and dad being good at painting....but I think that was just for a change...usually we go 'conventional'.

There is nothing that can be done for thomas the tank engine....there are no female characters in the 3 books she has and it is all high jinx and naughtiness from cover to cover.

Heard DH saying 'and for no reason that would make any sense to an external observe, the fat controller rewarded Thomas's bad behaviour by giving him his own branch line' but I think he knew I was listening and was probably just trying to get me to blow tea out of my nose.

"I have a problem with us artificially exagerating the difference between babies/toddlers of different sexes...apparently just for the purpose of making sure everyone knows their place"

Really!

Vive la difference I say. If all toddlers looked androgynous and all wore the same clothes life would be so dull. Why is it so important to you? Perhaps you would have felt more comfortable in China many years ago when everyone all wore the same clothes.

If results from everywhere are the same, there is no point fighting sexism. We would have to accept that it is a universal experience that never changes between time period or geographical location.

But that isn't the case. The extent to which sexism is experienced, the nature of that sexism and the causes of that sexism vary. The experiences of a white woman in the UK in university are different to those of a white girl in the UK in school. The sexism experienced by white women in the US is not the same as that experienced by African American women in the US.

If you have something specific to say about UK schools with evidence, then say it. You are essentially setting up a straw man argument by making out that because most people on this thread are not opposed to boys and girls knowing who is a boy and who is a girl, we are denying the existence of sexism, which is not the case.

min would it be possible to contract you for interpreter work on MN in general? You seem to be able to put what I am trying to say into terms that people actually get!

V interesting thread in a lot of ways.
I'm due to interview a Hilary Devey-type character later this week. Went into a mega mega male-dominated industry and thrived. I'm going to ask her how she got through any hassle, if indeed she had any. Have a feeling she'll say she ignored it, pretended not to notice it and ploughed on regardless, WITH blonde hair and lipstick, which is what we need to teach our daughters.

We are not artificially exaggerating the difference between different sexes of toddler. We are artificially hiding them by having them always wear clothes in front of each other.

My kids would have known who was a boy and who was a girl because of all the little kids running around naked in the park's paddling pool in the summer.

freya I also am not opposed to children being able to tell the difference.

I feel that the massive amplification of that difference is at least in part responsible for gender discrimination amongst adults.

There is evidence a mile high for loss of women from Uk universities (referred to as a leaky pipeline) and there are endless initiatives for doing something to fix it Athena, juno etc.

Same at school. Boys under performing at GSCE, no girls taking any science at all at A-level in huge numbers of schools.

I am sad that now my DD can tell she will be exposed to the messages that lead to this discrimination.

You're making some v interesting points, Freya - I'm going to have a good think about this clothes business.

Also, though, male and female gait is different, because of the pelvis, even before secondary sexual characteristics start to show, so I wonder how much of this is used innately.

freya that is a fair point. But seeing alternative genetalia doesn't tell you that girls should like flowers and boys should like action heros.

It doesn't tell you that girls are 'cute' and boys are 'strong' as many baby gros now do.

If the only difference we saw between little boys and girls was the actual difference I would have no problem.

And I wouldn't face the situation where my ability at everything from sport to work was judged erroniously on my sex organs.

My parents never ever said 'no' to us. They were classic 70's liberal parents. If I had wanted to wear a pink tutu then they wouldn't have stopped me. But they would have made their views very plain, in a way that made me feel it wasn't worth the hassle.

I was happy to be a 'tomboy' as a child, and preferred climbing trees, wearing jeans etc so that wasn't such a battleground then. It was when puberty dawned and suddenly I was the traitor, wanting to look nice, have fashionable clothes etc. I felt a wedge between my mother and me then. Sorry, but it's easy to get primary school kids to agree with you. It's when adolescence hits that they will start to feel conflicted, if my own experience is anything to go by.

Minouminou, my mum had a normal, happy childhood, but discovered feminism in the late 1960's and all her views then grew from that. She was/ is an academic feminist/ sociologist. I think she did want me to have lots of freedom that she felt she hadn't had, but it was a particular kind of freedom ie on her terms.

I haven't rtft

but life is tres depressing and gender stereotyping has an iron grasp on most everything.

bun we don't have to dress them alike. Just dress them regardless of gender.

I have no problem with frilly frocks if an equal number of boys and girls are in them...likewise dungarees.

Yes vive la difference...but not based on arbitrary boundaries that will then be used to pigeon hole people for the rest of their lives....

Yo hully!

well I agree with that....

I'd go one step further and say that even if girls wear frilly frocks and boys wear dungarees and ne'er the twain shall meet.....they should not be subject to value judgements and bias.

A lot of the reason why women don't advance in scientific careers is that they are often very ill suited to people taking time out of careers because they are pregnant or caring for young children on maternity leave. It makes absolute sense for girls not to take Science A levels and not go into a career that is going to kick them in the teeth and out of a job once they get pregnant.

Pretending there is no difference between males and females and therefore making no attempt at all to accommodate the lives of the people who get pregnant is not going to end sexism.

It would be far better for females to acknowledge the facts that they are female, and work together as a group to make society work to include us than to spend any period of time pretending that our collective lives are going to be just the same as those of men is ever going to happen.

No of course not.

I have one of each, it's interesting to hear their views. DS was cross the other day because he met a girl at a party and she said he had to message her first because "he is the boy"

Morris yes I can see that as a problem for the future. And exactly as you say for atheism as well.

I am atheist but can understand how it is possible to be a scientist and not be. My DH doesn't get it. I have pointed out again and again that he needs to get a grip on the religion = thick vibe because his DD may turn out to have faith.....

I don't think I need a grip on the pink lipstick wearing = thick vibe because I don't have one. I hate the system not the individuals in it. They are and should be free to choose. And even if my DD wants to work in the fashion industry then so be it. Your children can have different moral values to you without you not loving them etc.

She will know that with every ounce of strength I can put behind the message.

Or change the way the world of work is structured of course, freya. Change it to a structure that suits all adults and parents.

Really Icbineg?

Mine know that there are certain incontrovetible lines that once stepped over will lead to pariahdom and ostracism.

freya but as the data I showed states, that is not the whole picture. If you have an okay pregnancy, then the difference between a male and female parent could be as little as a months physical recovery time. We assume a mother will take more time than a father because we assume women are the nuturers. which comes right back to stereotyping.

And actually in the states it is uncommon for either parent to have more than a months leave in academia....so that is not a massive source of pay gap etc.

What changes would you make if you were Prez for a day, Freya?

I know the Nordic countries share parental leave and so on, but I don't know how well it really goes down within a company if a bloke takes a few months off. I hear conflicting anecdotes from friends there.

HullyGully, yes, I agree. The world of work needs to change to accommodate people's lives.

hully well obviously this is all theoretical at the moment...

I have to say that if my DD became a cosmetic surgeon I would really really struggle....

Or a handbag designer....

I feel these are professions that prey on women by making them doubt their own value...just so it can be bolstered by treatment/fashion accessory X.

But I am so wholy against brain washing that I can't see a way out!

Isn't it the mum that young babies need for food and comfort. Why is that a bad thing?

I'm taking my second maternity leave and I will walk back into my job in a few months time with no one batting an eyelid. Surely that's progress.

Iceberg, even if women were to return to work after 1 month, which I wouldn't want to do for numerous reasons including breast feeding my children, why is it okay for the workplace to discriminate against people who carry out nurturing roles? Why should women have to become less nurturing just because society devalues them for it?

A lot of women in the states don't go in to academia or drop out of academia because they don't want to work in an area that won't let them look after their children and go back into a career.

A lot of women don't go into academia in the US because they have a limited time before their fertility drops off a cliff to build a career and have kids, and being a poorly paid lackey as a grad student (very different to the structure in the UK) for years and years is a waste of their reproductive and career building years, often with no job at the end of it.