to be really annoyed about antibiotics?

[WaterfallsOver]

Or rather their misuse. I have parent friends who run to the GP every time little Billy has a cough, demanding antibiotics, so many people see them as a panacea. I'm not medically trained but I know they don't work on viruses and many illnesses need to run their course with no medical intervention.

The news is telling us antibiotics won't work in a few years due to over/misuse. I feel really angry that selfishness and stupidity mean in a few years people may die from infections resistant to antibiotics :( if they were only used for serious illness perhaps we'd have a chance. There was a guy who died from resistant infection on the news :(

True, but it's not healthy, as antibiotics also get rid of the non-harmful bacteria we all have in our guts, skin, etc, and that actually help keep the harmful bacteria at bay by competing with them.

I understand that. I was just responding to a PP's claim that she was resistant to amoxicillin because she'd been prescribed it so many times before.

That does vary mrs tw - my favourite GP was very against unnecessary prescribing for anything - it meant he was always willing to have a conversation about any treatments - pros & cons. Unfortunately most of my GP's have not been like that.

The way i see it at the moment is that while everyday infections are getting harder to treat - needing higher doses and maybe showing some resistance the scary stuff is happening in hospitals. So while you'll probably fine going about your everyday life surgery will become more dangerous as bacteria that are resistant to everything become more common hospital acquired infections. I think (and I do need to go back and check this - it's ages since I have watched) Andrew Read in the TEDMED talk makes the point that given the numbers already dying from hospital acquired infections soon we will all know someone who has died from one - much in the same way as we all know someone who has died in a car crash.

It might not be an apocalyptic scenario but it does mean that surgery is riskier than it was, or indeed should be - and it does mean that peopke go into hospital with a broken leg & come out in a coffin. Had antib's been protected and used appropriately we would not be in this situation now. Whether the blame is with farmers or clinicians doesn't really matter. Ultimately the blame as I see it is human stupidity. John Maynard Smith was very clear - when antibiotics were introduced 'they' were told, they were warned by evolutionary biologists that they needed to be protected.

XBenedict I have heard from Americans I talk to that, say you have a sore throat, the doctor will take a swab and send it off for culture/analysis and then depending on the result will prescribe.

In the UK I have never had this done. The GP invariably says it's viral. After 1 or 2 more weeks of being ill I generally had to go back and then get ABs as either it wasn't viral to start with or I had acquired a secondary bacterial infection.

I have no tonsils or adenoids, both removed in childhood, I have a history of chronic and badly controlled asthma and now slight COPD. Every chest infection known to man came my way.

I am fortunate that the final control of my asthma seems to have reduced the severity of the chest infections I am prone to. I am sad that I had to wait till my 50s for that to happen.

Op you sayyou are not medically qualified, but neither are the patrents you are slating. The blame results with doctors who are inappropriately prescribing.

MadHairDay - re "I've taken so many abs over my lifetime that I have no resistance left to most of them"

Are you a bacterium? How do you communicate with us?

"they used to put a cut onion in the room in the belief that the onion would absorb the infection"

And how does the "infection" leave your body and go to the onion? Do the bacteria sprout wings and fly? Do they develop eyes and noses to determine where the onion is so they can jump toward it?

Cote LOL! On form this a.m.

I think the point is that antibiotics are already tightly controlled in this country compared with some where they are available over the counter.

I can honestly say I have never been prescribed antibiotics (nor have I asked for them) unless I have developed a secondary URT infection and been ill for at least 10 days. Unfortunately I have lung damage from legionella pneumonia so this can happen every couple of years.

I have never had long-term antibiotics apart from twice in my life having a resistant kidney inflammation and bladder infection - which I am apparently prone to having had had scarlet fever as a child.

Perhaps I am lucky but I find GPs are so much better nowadays in terms of discussing disease with patients, and exploring whether or not antibiotics are actually necessary.

I think there are two issues really. One is that new infections can have antibiotic resistant characteristics. The other is the rise of hospital-borne infection.

The RCN point out that the difference across Europe in the prevalence and control of hospital-borne infections is largely down to cost.

I honestly don't think restricting antibiotics for people who may be ill with bacterial infections is the answer here!

Proper, speedy testing at GP surgeries would help to restrict antibiotic use where it is unnecessary, and save lives when it certainly is necessary.

Why blame the patients and their demands when really this is simply a matter of cost. The cost of making proper testing available rather than forcing GPs to essentially guess whether or not antibiotics are needed.

And the cost of reducing overcrowding and poor hygiene practice in our hospitals.

Cote I think you're being a bit disingenuous really. No-one is suggesting replacing antibiotics with a cut up onion. However if you search pubmed for say tea tree oil you will find it's use, eg as a wash in ICU being investigated (even if the results haven't been that promising so far). A sign at least that alternatives are being sourced. Even the WHO suggests a return to the pre-antibiotic era isn't impossible www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs194/en/

Olgaga - I think you've been lucky really. I was prescribed some completely unnecessary antibiotics last week. It's true that they're better controlled here than many places, I don't think we should be patting ourselves on the back.

www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs194/en/

Well at least in this country you need a prescription to buy antibiotics. There are countries where you can buy them OTC and I suspect more disease resistant strains are being cooked up there.

The problem with many of those "natural" remedies is that there is often a kernel of truth in them. Onions and garlic do have antimicrobial activity, we know that, but how is this going to clear up a full blown, eardrum-bursting microbial infection? In the German version you are meant to bind a cut onion to the infected ear. The antimicrobial compounds are supposedly wafting to the centre of infection trough all the pus and gunk. .
A dermatologist I know (not here in the UK) was treating a woman recently who had taken colloidal silver for its antibacterial properties. Colloidal silver is used for skin infections and works well but to use it internally is just mad. This woman now has argyria which is pretty much irreversible.

And I may have misunderstood (skim read and not my area) but this paper does seem to be saying that there's an increased individual (and household) risk of carrying resistant bacteria from using antibiotics. I'm sure one of the experts on this thread can point out if I had misunderstood. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2861397/#R8

^Children's use of ?any antibiotic? in the prior 3 months increased their risk of carrying ampicillin-resistant E. coli, and their use of sulfa drugs showed a dose-response relationship to sulfamethoxazole resistance. Household members' antibiotics use increased children's risk of carrying sulfamethoxazole- and multidrug-resistant bacteria. There was no association between children's and household members' antibiotics use (unadjusted prevalence risk ratio [UPRR] 1.20, 95% confidence interval [CI] 0.94?1.51); and household members' use was a risk factor for sulfamethoxazole resistance even in children with no usage (UPRR 1.17, 95% CI 1.11?1.23).^

Actually JimJams, I know people who seriously suggest to replace antibiotics with onions or similar things, usually homeopathy. They are mostly in Germany where HP and alternative treatments are incredibly popular and rarely challenged anymore and I remember from previous discussions here on MN that France is similar.

Olgaga - I think you've been lucky really. I was prescribed some completely unnecessary antibiotics last week.

I find it hard to believe a GP would bother writing a prescription for antibiotics for someone who expressed a view that they didn't need them - they must have had a reason for doing that.

Did you go in with a bag of cut-up onions?

And this is an interesting review paper in the BMJ

They conclude that Our review identified a number of studies that together provide strong evidence of an association at the individual patient level between the prescribing of antibiotics in primary care and antimicrobial resistance in bacteria at different sites, including the urinary and respiratory tracts and the skin. Effects were strongest in the month directly after prescription but were detectable for up to12 months. This residual effect is likely to be an important driver for the high endemic levels of antibiotic resistance in the community.

What I'm not clear about is whether say repeated antibiotic use makes individuals more likely to show resistance when they come to be treated for an infection. I think it is saying that is the case - at least for a certain time period after treatment (presumably over time the resistant strains are outcompeted and so individual resistance drops). Also from that paper This plot shows that at all time periods the odds of resistance were greater in patients exposed to these antibiotics than in those who were unexposed and that the strongest association was at 0-1 months, with reduced association at subsequent time points, and a small but important residual association within 12 months.

I'm still not clear on what it all means for an individual, but thinking if there is an individual effect ('you are more at risk of carrying resistant bacteria and therefore developing a future resistant infection if you have used antibiotics in the previous year' - is is saying that - I think I am guessing the second part?) then that could be something to target in changing people's behaviour and desire for unnecessary antibiotics? Not great if you need repeated courses of antibiotics though.

The prescription had already been sent to the chemists 3 days before I had the appointment - which was a regular carers assessment, not in relation to any symptoms. No-one had told me the antibiotic had been ordered. She seemed a bit confused by why it had been given & took time to explain that I didn't have an infection (I had a dysbiosis). I wandered down, picked it up, paid £7 for the privilege and shoved it in the back of the cupboard.

If we'd had a discussion about it I would have said I didn't want it.

Ah okay found my answer I think. For pneumonoccal infections anyway there is an increased individual risk.

Studies have also shown correlations between recent antibiotic use and the incidence of invasive disease caused by non-susceptible pneumococci (64). This suggests that recent antimicrobial use not only increases the risk that an individual will carry, and therefore potentially transmit resistant pneumococci, but that it also increases the risk that the individual will develop invasive pneumococcal illness caused by resistant pneumococci.

There's more from page 11 onwards

Gosh that was from 2001

Still no takers for Vitamin C?
Last winter I had two infections that my doctor prescribed Ab's for previously I had not had any ab's for 10+ years. The infections did go but I was left feeling lethargic and unwell. I took probiotic tablets which helped me somewhat.

I then started reading around and came across the work of Linus Pauling (Pauling is the only person to be awarded two unshared Nobel Prizes) with Vitamin C. From there I researched lots more.
For nearly a year now I have been taking 3-5000mg of Vitamin C a day, along with other Vitamins particularly B's and D.
I have not had a cough cold or flu since despite been exposed to numerous adults and children with them. I had a wisdom tooth extracted which caused signs of bacterial infection (high temperature, racing heart, breathlessness) I simply upped my intake of C and within a day they were gone.

It's funny though no one seems to take this seriously, like surely it cant be that simple?? I just smile and keep taking the white stuff. :)

I'd recommend anyone read up on the subject with an open mind of course. Big pharma really don't like Vitamins and minerals as they cant patent them, they can make huge amounts of money from them and because they work!

A couple of links in case anyone is interested
Vitamin C and Sepsis
Vitamin D and Influenza

Oh and please watch the video I posted above

ElenorRigby i was looking for your post but there are SOOO many on here I watched the link you gave and was very impressed; but then you know I'm into alternatives; I follow my Blood Type for my health and its like ABs (which I haven't taken for 35 years BTW ) no one with any power wants to know about it because, exactly as you said, they'd make NO money out of people being healthy sounds cynical but I'm sure of it!!!

oops - badly phrased.

I was trying to say that most abs don't clear up my infections any more. I don't know the technicalities, but my consultant seems to think that I've had so much amoxy, for eg, that it now makes little difference.

Despite winning the Nobel prize twice and being one of the top scientist's of all time Linus Pauling was ridiculed and vilified by the medical establishment/big pharma for his work on vitamins that threatened their business.
Big pharma want to treat symptoms but not cure so they can keep pedalling their stuff, they really arnt interested in people being healthy perish the thought!

BTW as part of my experiment I didnt have the flu jab this year and have done much much better without it! Not so much as a sniffle!