To wonder WTF has happened to students?!

[CharminglyOdd]

I'm 25 and finished my studies (for good!) just over a year ago so have bits and pieces of uni experience over the last seven years. DP does some teaching at a university where they have a sister college in another town. Students at the uni who want to take his module have to travel to the sister college, which is vocational (they can combine the two). Some asked for a meeting and so he arranged to meet them at X cafe at 1730. I've just had a text from him to say that they didn't know where X cafe was (it's in our, and their, home town where the main uni is that they travel from every week) so instead of Googling it or asking him they trekked out to the sister town and have spent the last half an hour wandering around trying to find it. They are on their way back now to meet him and he's going to be very late home (he teaches one class and doesn't have an office before anyone suggests that).

There are other things that have happened, including requests for more clarification on assignments (which I have done, he has done, nothing wrong with that) but when they are not satisfied with the answer they email again, and again, and it becomes apparent that what they are really after is the answer to the question. A large proportion submitted assignments that failed the plagiarism software even though they knew the software existed and it's not got a low bar for detection AND they have plagiarism talks rammed down their throats (I know because I did and I got heartily sick of it)

Any other examples are too specific but, in all honesty, I don't think this many students were like it when I started only a few years ago. I wouldn't have pulled half the stuff they pull - I had too much respect for (most of!) my lecturers.

It's not the majority of students but still a pretty depressing proportion. I don't know how on earth they think some of this stuff is reasonable behaviour. And I'm pissed off because I'm hungry, he was due home ten minutes ago and it's eating into our time together (I work away, got tomorrow off so home early!).

Universities are getting no more money per student than they were before. They're simply getting it all from the student instead of part from the student and part from taxation. I understand that for the student looking forward to a debt-laden future this is not relevant, but there is no more money available to provide the 'first class' service than there ever was.

I'll second that LRD. When DP told me how much they were paying him (he has three jobs - one class teaching, some contracted long-standing work and is self-employed on smaller projects) we had a heated discussion about the level of stress vs. the level of payment. If he didn't love his subject so much and not be able to engage with it outside university teaching he wouldn't be doing it.

Yep. My mate has just observed that she'd be better paid for waitressing than teaching. But then, of course, she is well aware that teaching is something she would much rather do, so there is a huge advantage to it.

Despite that, it's a bit annoying when people assume that it's the teachers at university who decided to set the cost of an undergraduate degree.

zwischenzug Thu 28-Feb-13 21:10:52
"If you're going to stuff £50k of debt down a teenagers throat, don't be surprised when they expect first class service from you, and are desperate not to fail. "

Being desperate not to fail doesn't really explain why they don't bother to turn up to lectures or tutorials. Last year 50% (!) failed to turn up to individual tutoring appointments which they themselves had booked with me. The first class service was sitting there waiting in the office all day...

A high percentage complained that the reading list was too long or that the course was too difficult but from the section of the feedback form which asked how many hours they spend preparing the module, it was clear that only about 5% were putting in the number of hours they had been told was the minimum amount: the majority were doing far less.

This year's students otoh are lovely, but then it's a different subject, which tends to attract the mature and thoughtful.

second what cory said, dh spends far too much time chasing non attenders. he has some that started in sept who have yet to attend or hand in anything. all he's had are illegible emails from them, in text speak, with excuse after excuse. and these are the students, who, if they make it to year 3, will complain about the 'service'. as cory said, it's there, but they need to enter the building and make use of it!

LessMissAbs: Am shocked that the students are given out handouts with spaces!!! In the olden days (20 years ago now!!!!), we had true excentric bouncing across a blackboard with chalk and a running commentry on the finer points of organic chemistry. If you missed it tough - you sat in the library with a text book. Although there a 25% failure rate in the first year....

But, I'm not saying to say "oh how tough we had it then and how easy they have it now", but it taught us to be resilient and independent. Now all exams come with markschemes at the same time as being made easier (I am a teacher, so I know this to be true). Every year the hard bits are being gradually sneaked out from A-level Chemistry. This gives students a sense that they should and are expected to get full marks. Anything less is a failure. There is no reward for the process of learning.

To get the OP's original point, I think that they panic and now in the age of email and internet don't bother thinking because they have gotten lazy (or never started fully engaging in the first place). The answer is always immediately round the corner.

cory - one of my friends had a student turn up begging for a meeting. She said yes, and was faced with a student who complained she'd no idea who to go and talk to, and it was all too scary, and she was overwhelmed. She ended up in tears.

My mate asked gently if she'd been to the office hours set up by the very eminent academic who was running the course and who'd taken huge trouble to encourage students. The student said no, she felt too stupid and didn't want to bother anyone - she'd been told (and she wouldn't say by whom) that she would get a bad reputation if she troubled the academics.

Isn't that awful? I don't know how you avoid it or how you cope with seeing this sort of thing time and again - it must really get to you. And I don't know how the student got on after that. It was just complete miscommunication.

Sorry, just an anecdote.

That's really sad, LRD and I hope it couldn't happen with us

But I don't see how it can explain students who have been told to book an appointment, and who have booked an appointment, failing to turn up at the appointed time and never bothering to explain what happened. Yes, I could explain away one or two by stress or absent-mindedness or whatever, but there were over a dozen of them!

We tell them at seminars that they must make and keep tutorial appointments, we send round group emails to remind them, we put it in the course handbook which every student is given at the start of term, we put it on the course website which they are shown how to open.

It's quite shocking that 50% of your students failed to turn up cory. Do you keep records of attendance even after the students have left?

I asked my old tutor for an academic reference 4 years after leaving university for a MSc and although he couldn't remember me, he looked up all my details on a database and told me that he could see I had regularly attended my lectures and that he could see I'd really worked hard in the last year to get my grade and for that reason he was happy to write my reference.

surely students must know they'll need references in the future?

I hope it was a one-off, cory. It was very sad - but I know absolutely that the academics make a huge effort. The one in question is the most caring person, and regularly goes way beyond what might be expected. The issue was that this student had come up with a huge assumption that she couldn't get over - that she mustn't bother an academic.

LRD and LaQueen, thanks for your posts.
It gives me confidence that ds will be fine.

gloucestergirl agreed.

We have a Facebook page for our course and the main topics are all technicalities such as spacing, indents, referencing etc. No one actually debates ideas. Lecturers often dumb down and teach to the slides rather than discuss. It feels like A level college most the time. I did a degree in 1990 and now in my final year of my second.

In response to the poster who didn't think looking at four website was much of a challenge we have just found out that at least half of us are working on the wrong handbook because on website No. 1 there are 3 different units with the same name from different years. Some worked out the course number had a year tacked on the end (even though it was last years) and some clicked on the top one assuming it would be the latest. Some of us can't get some of the websites at home, some journals can only be accessed at home unless you phone student support but you don't know f this is you or not (every new academic year) etc etc. Library changes every two years meaning all the units on how to access work is redundant etc etc.

IMVHO they have been used to being spoon fed at school. Every whim being met. University is about independent learning, not an extension of 6th form. You can blame tuition fees on the government NOT the tutors. I am in 2nd year of my degree with the OU, I will only contact my tutor if I am really stuck. I hate the phrase but some students need to man the fuck up and take control of their own learning.

With all due respect, I know my supervisors spend a huge amount of time trying to persuade students to come and see them before they are really stuck. As cory says. Please - go to see them!

I am at Uni in my 1st year as an Undergrad..aged 49.

I have not been in a classroom since the age of 18. I am5 months in...and still feel a bit shellshocked at this so very different level of learning. Referencing, plagarism, drafts and assessments...what's it all about?...but I am getting there. But then..because of my polarized rabbit-in-headlines utter fear of failing, and working/parenting/menopausal all thrown into the mix, I do attend all lectures/seminars, I do attend voluntary the library tutorials on study skills, and I do check my online module account thingy every 2.4 minutes in case I "have missed something", or there's been a room change.

I am a nervous wreck

headlights not headlines ffs

And I think I can pass this course?

I'm not sure if I agree with you - I'm 30 and a medical student, so I may be mixing with a different type of student, but I am always astounded at how mature they are. When I was 18... Well I won't go into details, but I was up to all sorts and a bit of a twat tbh...

Actually that is a good point DrRanj todays young people are way more open minded and inclusive than 200 years ago.

Yanbu. I am a bit older than you but I had a load of useless people in my year (decent enough uni). People who didn't do the reading, or turn up to lectures, or start writing anything more than a week before the deadline including 12,000 word dissertation. Not much different at law school, where people (or their parents) were paying 9k minimum but lots didn't bother to turn up to half the classes (and that really is spoon feeding so if you miss lots of workshops you are fucked)

Also horror stories from lecturer mates - people copying stuff wholesale off wiki, the guy who wrote about Edward Ii the person when he was supposed to be writing about the play by Marlowe, etc etc. often the parents have spent 100k on school fees before offspring get to this point.

Unis still don't have enough money but people think because they are paying so much they should get whatever they want from lecturers, including essays plans (seriously) so they will know what they're doing.

But I don't see how it can explain students who have been told to book an appointment, and who have booked an appointment, failing to turn up at the appointed time and never bothering to explain what happened. Yes, I could explain away one or two by stress or absent-mindedness or whatever, but there were over a dozen of them!

DH is a lecturer he got very frustrated with this - now gives them a weekday, a set time and a room locations and says he there and available to them. They are regularly reminded. Students seem happy with that especially as it weekly so they don't have to chase him and he doesn't have to wait round for no shows.

I do think a lot of his students first thought to to send an e-mail demanding answers to stuff they already have been given or asking for the answer to questions they are supposed to work out. Annoying at weekends if DH see them as till we move down there he only see him then - might not take long to answer but it does take time from the DC and me and feels intrusive.

The whole signing in thing - DH started doing this for his tutorials and attendance sored and they do they course work regularly in the sessions not last minute dash - but in my undergraduate degree mid to late 90 our tutorial, computer and some lectures were sign in as well so its not a new idea.

I also remember one of my 90s lectures being shocked at how little reading round the subjects area we did being very focused on what got us marks. I've recently studied with OU and while I rarely contacted my tutor I know other students seem to be in contact constantly and often as the first thing to they did.

I not sure if students are worse now or not of if they are just young and slightly different.

I have 2 undergraduate degrees, one from a top RG uni which was 1988-92 (age 17-21), one from an independent theological college which only took 2 years as I got direct entry to 2nd year in 2006-2008 (age 35-37). That they were very different experiences, but the one thing that stood out for me was the general lack of common sense and general knowledge of the younger students on the 2nd course.

There were students who didn't know what the USSR was, that there had been an East and West Germany (considering many of the prominent theologians of the 20th century were German, this was important!). Many people who just wanted to know what the lecturer thought because they thought tha was how to get good marks. I got some of my best results when I expressed views I knew were not those of my tutors, but was able to argue my position academically.

I trained as a teacher after my first degree and got on very well with my Academic Adviser, who had also been a teacher before going in to lecturing. She had several long moans (obviously not naming names!) about terrible attendance, students in final year still turning in essays with 4 references, not even referenced properly.

I think student culture has changed a lot since my first degree. Some things are obvious, like mobile phones. I met other students in my year who did not know how to use a pay phone or make a cup of coffee - they just went to Starbucks! Also, students are so much higher maintenance - clothes etc. I bought pretty much everything from Oxfam, as did a huge swathe of my friends and classmates. There's also much less political engagement, activism, interest in the real world - which I would have hoped (but yes I do realise this was a forlorn hope) that theology students would take an interest in.

That said, I did much better in my 2nd degree, and got much more out of it academically. And that is partly down to not choosing lectures because they were easy or I liked the assessment style. My crowning glory of my choices in Edinburgh was my decision to take Canadian Studies. Chosen solely because no one had failed the course in 7 years. I was not alone in my choice or reasons for it!

Yes, ok, on balance maybe old-time students didn't shine either, it's just different but it really was better back then . mainly as I didn't have 3 children back then and the booze was cheap

I do admit that I have encountered some poor students, but they do seem to be in the minority. In my experience, some students do ask stupid questions, but then, I have been in many workplaces where I could say the same about mature adults - also the same thing with expecting immediate replies outwith normal hours. It's easy to tar all students with the same brush, but not all of us are totally useless.

Some lecturers don't realize that we are often fed contradictory information by the administration office, or module conveners. Where I am, policies are frequently changed without anyone being informed, including those teaching us, so students become paranoid around coursework and exam times and probably send stupid questions, but it's borne out of panic.

I didn't go to uni until my 30s so I expected some 18 year olds to be a bit immature.

I've seen / experienced (teach FE but some HE courses) lots of what you have said OP.

I've also seen/experienced really hard work and independence.

As for plagiarism. I once pulled up the website the student had copied word for word and she still denied it. She claimed she had read all the same books as the author and written, word for word, the same text.

Then I had one who gave a reference as being a paper mill site - honest I suppose.

I had a student come to see me last week. It turned out he'd been going to classes in the wrong department for the whole of the first semester. He complained we hadn't sent him a letter to ask where he was when we saw he wasn't coming to class.

He also accidentally handed me a condom wrapper with his student card