To wonder WTF has happened to students?!

[CharminglyOdd]

I'm 25 and finished my studies (for good!) just over a year ago so have bits and pieces of uni experience over the last seven years. DP does some teaching at a university where they have a sister college in another town. Students at the uni who want to take his module have to travel to the sister college, which is vocational (they can combine the two). Some asked for a meeting and so he arranged to meet them at X cafe at 1730. I've just had a text from him to say that they didn't know where X cafe was (it's in our, and their, home town where the main uni is that they travel from every week) so instead of Googling it or asking him they trekked out to the sister town and have spent the last half an hour wandering around trying to find it. They are on their way back now to meet him and he's going to be very late home (he teaches one class and doesn't have an office before anyone suggests that).

There are other things that have happened, including requests for more clarification on assignments (which I have done, he has done, nothing wrong with that) but when they are not satisfied with the answer they email again, and again, and it becomes apparent that what they are really after is the answer to the question. A large proportion submitted assignments that failed the plagiarism software even though they knew the software existed and it's not got a low bar for detection AND they have plagiarism talks rammed down their throats (I know because I did and I got heartily sick of it)

Any other examples are too specific but, in all honesty, I don't think this many students were like it when I started only a few years ago. I wouldn't have pulled half the stuff they pull - I had too much respect for (most of!) my lecturers.

It's not the majority of students but still a pretty depressing proportion. I don't know how on earth they think some of this stuff is reasonable behaviour. And I'm pissed off because I'm hungry, he was due home ten minutes ago and it's eating into our time together (I work away, got tomorrow off so home early!).

This is probably really obvious, so forgive me if I'm teaching my grandmother (though you're younger than me so I hope not! ).

But, one of the best pieces of advice I got about teaching was - tell them in the first class what you will expect and what the penalties will be. And email them a copy. So, I say:

• It is your responsibility to get to class on time. If the class is cancelled or the venue changes, it is your responsibility to check your email, and if you miss a class because you missed an email, you will be marked absent (there are penalties for this).

• It is your responsibility to take the anti-plagiarism online tutorial and to make sure you know the rules. Ignorance will not be taken as an excuse.

• It is your responsibility to ask for help in a timely manner. If you email me fewer than 24 hours before the submission deadline I cannot guarantee a reply.

etc. etc.

It is useful, because even though these same rules are set out in the handbook and they should all know them, it seems to work best if they also hear it verbally in class and get an email from me personally, so they know that I know that these are the rules. Then there are no excuses for it.

There's no way I'd have waited around for that class, but I would have rescheduled it for them after giving them a ticking off for being idiots.

Btw, I agree with ladywidmerpool.

I don't see what's wrong with someone asking how many references to use, for example. Obviously it's a problem if they mean 'can I get away with as few as possible', but I was discussing with my mate the other day how many references we put into our work and we're both fourth year PhDs.

LadyWidmerpool actually I do know what "it took them to get there" - the marks required for entrance, plus extra-curricular skills.

A university is not a charity, but an institution of academic excellence, and no, in exams and particularly not in take-home assingments, you do not get away with making that many mistakes. But generally by the time they do fail, they have been given numerous chances.

The problem a lot of the time is of course those offspring who have been brought up by parents that do everything for them, and barely have any experience of making the journey to school in their own, and who have always been spoon-fed. Those are the ones who struggle the most, not those who have clawed their way in through adversity.

Well isn't it up to the lecturers to teach the clueless not to be so clueless.?
They arrive from school at 17 or 18 and have to learn to live alone for the first time in their lives.
I'm pretty sure ds understands what university entails, but fuck, I hope he doesn't have lecturers that are totally dismissive about how difficult it can be.

I understand where you're coming from less, and please don't think I don't ... but I do think there can be issues that aren't immediately obvious. For most people this is the first time they're off on their own, and it's not that uncommon for people to find that it's only when they get to university that an undetected condition (depression) or learning disability shows up. Of course I know this can't explain it for all of them, but it must occasionally be the case.

lady - c'mon, it's not a lecturer's job to teach students how to use google maps.

Other things - yes. But not that.

ladybeagleeyes they arrive at university as adults who should have been taught by their parents/ teachers/ learnt themselves how to look after themselves years earlier. That is so not the university's job!

Its an attitude like yours that leads to the problem we are discussing.

I think the kind of thing you'd expect to teach someone would include what plagiarism is - that's fair. And I think it's fair enough to teach someone what's a reasonable question about the essay and what isn't - because you don't come to university automatically knowing that, and there's no shame in it.

But I would draw the line at teaching someone how to navigate to the meeting - although, I say that, and I'm remembering that my lovely PhD supervisor when she realized I was dyslexic wrote me out a set of very careful instructions so I wouldn't have to try to read a map to get to the university from the train station. That was above and beyond the call of duty but I'd hope I'd be prepared to try to do that for a student who really needed it.

I wouldn't be prepared to be patient with students who'd just not bothered and had missed a class because they made a seriously stupid error. I think those things are different?

It's strange that the OP and I are both (by her admission) young and wet behind the ears but we seem to have opposite extremes of what we think is reasonable!

No, I don't think it is lecturer's jobs to teach student not to be clueless!
A lexturer is there to lecture about an academic subject, not life skills. I see it as my job to teach my children life skills, and yes I know there will be a few parents out there that don't give a damn about teaching their children anything, but it is definitely not academics' rolei in life.
I expect them to be experts in their field, that is all.

I get how frustrating it must be for lecturers and tutors when they feel students have been molly-coddled and indulged but it's not always that clear-cut.

My DS beat tremendous odds to get to a great university but at the beginning of his first year he was completely clueless - he would have been one of those students unable to find the cafe. He has high-functioning ASD and Generalised Anxiety Disorder. We prioritised getting him through his academic studies and keeping him sane - the practical skills and common sense he is having to learn the hard way. So if you are his lecturer or tutor I apologise if he is a bit 'wet' - he will get there in the end and in fact he is already a different kid to the one I packed off 5 months ago...sniff.

I'm not overly sympathetic today. Just finished a module which has a very different coursework format to what we're used to. The lecturers know that do have its a "practise question and offered to mark it fir anyone who wasn't confident. I was the only student who bothered, and other students were trying to look at my work today.

All of these students were full timers and i'm pretty sure none of them have spent nights during the term sat up with an ill baby. They just didn't bother. Its a post grad course too, they should really have organised themselves by now.

If he were one of mine (and I'm dead junior and useless so probably not! ), I would definitely try to work out what extra help he might need and how best to support him, emphatic. It's harder if he doesn't have DSA, but even if he doesn't, I'd email him before class and check what he thinks he might need help with, and I'd keep in mind there might be things I didn't expect.

I think most people would do that, too.

I'm very proud that DSD starts uni this year. She's hard working, takes the initiative, mostly mature in outlook and very clever. I guarantee her fellow students and lecturers will have no idea what it 'took for her to get there'. She and all her colleagues may all require a specific grade to get in, and a set amount of extra curricular activities to boot, but don't be mistaken that they've all started from the same starting block. I'm a grad, but given her challenging start in life, I'm not sure I'd come through fighting as she has.

Please don't say "actually I do know what 'it took them to get there'"(Lessmissabs, 2013, p.2) Crap referencing joke there....

Ds knows how to use google maps LRD, and all the rest..
I just hope that lecturers understand that for students starting a whole new life will get a little bit of understanding, and it seems that you do.

Thanks LRD - he's just taken a test to see if he qualifies for extra time in his summer exams - he just took the Jan ones without and was pretty stressed. There is a lovely pastoral team who are watching out for him and he seems very happy but obvious stuff has... well... never been obvious to him. I think he's pretty amazing though

My DD is 20 and in her 3rd year of a 4 year degree. She works hard, e mails her tutors sensible questions and gets good marks. She is however a little scatty at times (once missed an exam as she looked up the wrong course). Her written work is excellent - she gets me to proof read everything for spelling and punctuation (she is doing Theology so i have no comment to make on the content). I really don't think students are much different now - you are just seeing it all from a different angle.

Wow, at some of the replies here before my last post.
Just another example of stopping worrying about your teens when they've left home, that's it, we'll leave it now, I've done my job.
Ds is 17 and an adult, who I respect as an adult, he's got a girlfriend, he has sex I assume.
But I still expect university lecturers to understand the change in their lives, at least in their first year.

LadyBeagleEyes Well isn't it up to the lecturers to teach the clueless not to be so clueless

No, its up to their parents...

And in actual fact, the clue is in the word "lecturer". Although its becomingly increasingly unfashionable to say so, university is supposed to be a higher learning institution where students learn but aren't always taught ie lecturers give the basic materials and then the students are supposed to go away and research the topic in more detail, do further reading, prepare set questions, discuss those questions in a group setting, and so on.

It is different now littlewhitebag - you have to give them power points and lecture handouts with spaces for them to write in, because they complain if they have to write down too much in lecturers. And then you have to put the lecture notes on the internet for them, for the ones that don't make it to the lectures. And as I've say, they complain and demand to be remarked if you fail them, or complain about the lecturer, or the course, or the university, when the problem is generally their failure to do any work.

I do teach a vocational, professional subject, and there is a world of difference between the undergraduate students doing that subject, and the postgrduate students who come from other backgrounds. The former are just much more independent and self motivating, and I rarely have to correct their puncuation and grammar. Most of them need 3 "A"s as a minimum to get into that course at undergraduate level, plus extra-curricular interests.

A lot of support is given to students particularly in the first year. There are study skills, tutor support, accommodation support et al. At my dept we have a tutor system and as tutors we are expected to email all first year students in the first couple of weeks to welcome them and offer to meet up with them during office hours. Guess how many took up that offer? One. Out of a dozen.

I emailed them again this term as per requested... And none responded. But of course students want our attention immediately when there's a 'crisis'...

Best of luck to him emphatic. He sounds pretty amazing, to be getting through with all of that! Btw, even if he doesn't get it, it's definitely still worth him saying to his tutors at university what his diagnosis is - he could email if he's shy of saying it in from of his classmates - because that way they will be prepared and can help him out if he needs it.

takeaway I agree. I was taken aback by the lecturers insisting on people signing in for lectures, but apparently this is because it is common now for students to not turn up most of the time and then demand help come exam time.

Ffs to do this course you pretty much have to be in your twenties, its shocking how little personal responsibility there is. I've had a few problems with getting to "extra sessions" and the lecturers have bent over backwards to try and help me, because I email as soon as I know I will have a problem and apologise. So I was shocked to get an email from the course administrator complaining about students not bothering and explaining that if you didn't attend timetabled lectures with no apology then there will be no extra help.

About the google map thing: could it be that the students are foreign and aren't really familiar with using it? If they're not, then why couldn't he hire a meeting room/class room or meet in the cafeteria in the university campus?
Our lecturers used to always hold meetings in one of the two cafeteria/coffee shops in our main campus. No one ever met outside the campus unless it was for socialising.

Maybe he should keep that in mind for next time.

To be honest, though, if students are foreign they should have studied up on how to find places!

It's worth being aware it may be the norm in one university only to hold meetings in a small number of rooms, but it's not the norm in others - and might not even be practical.

I held my feedback sessions in the cafe on campus, but felt it was not really appropriate because you didn't want students to be overheard. But it's also nice to be in an informal setting, so another time, I would think a coffee shop in town would be perfect.

FWIW I've always heard that overseas students tend to be very good at working out how to get to places, because they know they don't know (if that makes sense), so they are more motivated.

Getting lost isn't a cardinal offence, but it is a stupid mistake and I think the OP's partner shouldn't pander to it unless there is a clear reason (such as emphatic's son's specific needs).

If you're going to stuff £50k of debt down a teenagers throat, don't be surprised when they expect first class service from you, and are desperate not to fail.

Erm ... zwisch, I think you might be confusing the government, who decided to bring in tuition fees, and lecturers?

Personally, I don't even cover my transport costs when I teach. I love teaching and I get good reports back about it, and my students have done really well - but it wasn't me who decided to impose a debt on students, and I am not even making money by teaching them ... did you realize that?

Did you know that a lot of people teaching undergraduates are making very little money on it, and opposed tuition fees? It's not just me.