to address a woman in a formal letter as "Ms"?

[twattock]

Here's the problem; as a solicitor the formal way to address correspondence is "Dear sirs/your faithfully" or "Dear (insert as appropriate)/yours sincerely". But I often have to write to a woman without knowing what title she has given herself-so do I use Ms? I dont want to assume anything obviously, so I can't use Miss or Mrs, so what would people prefer?

Prettybird, 1984 was fiction......

Language reflects thinking. If language presents maleness as the norm, with femaleness being the exception, then that will inform our thinking as well.

And it is completely effortless and harms no one to change our language, so why not do it?

Couldn't have put it better Seeker.

Yes I know it is fiction

However, it was an excellent portrayal of how it is possible for power to corrupt and for individual freedoms to be curtailed. It's a description of what could happen if we are not careful to protect our freedoms.

Hamlet is fiction too - doesn't mean that you can't analyse the human condition through it. The same with plenty of other works of fiction - the intent of the author is to make us think.

The sad thing is, in recent years, some of things in 1984 have come true. :(

"Dear Sirs, Mesdames" - thank you, I shall make a note of that. Can't remember the last time I wrote a 'Dear Sirs' letter - am in the kind of job where it's mostly email and the letters on paper are usually to people who have give me their title. I use 'Ms' as the default but there is the risk of causing offence to people who have this strange hang up about being married. I'm married too, FWIW, but I don't see the need to make a fuss about it.

given me their title, obv!

Ms always. I understand why some women or men change their surname to have a common family name but have never understood why any woman would want to be Mrs.

I am Mrs. I couldn't care less whether people know my marital status - it doesn't bother me. It doesn't show anything to be honest- I was Mrs when I was a widow.

Probably because Mrs and Miss have a much nicer sound than Ms.

Oh, exotic, I do hate disagreeing with you!

But Mrs has a nicer sound than Ms? Exactly how are you measuring that?

You haven't heard it mangled by children- probably the reason most teachers stick to Mrs or Miss!

It would drive me demented!

In Scottish primary schools, all female teachers are "Miss" (and if appropriate, their surname), regardless of marital status. :)

Same in England! They can't really tell the difference!

OK, analyse the human condition through fiction if you like, but it would be more useful to point to a situation where the artificial alteration of language could be shown to have actually changed mindsets.

Preferably in less than a 20 year period.

Fiction might have people flying to the moon but I wouldn't go in a spaceship designed on the basis of the descriptions in the book.

20 years ago it wasn't uncommon for some people to go to the paki shop for a pint of milk. can you imagine thinking that's normal now? the point of this thread was to find the right way to address a woman in a formal letter or email. it might be a small thing but I think it's important to think it through all the same.

If it is your firm, I would love to see you change the Dear Sirs thing in law, even if it just in the way your firm writes to other firms. I do think language is important, it would be great if it changed.

Juliette - I changed my name on marriage to have a family name. I hadn't really developed as much feminist thinking back then and it literally did not occur to me that I could change my name and be Ms Marriedname. Did not cross my mind. I thought about changing to a new name together, double barrell all that stuff and couldn't be bothered. But Ms, not a thought. Daft eh?

I had a BF who was a solicitor. He noticed that when a house was sold by or to a couple, the man's name would always be typed before the woman's name on the sale contract. He did it the other way round once, and the solicitor supervising him made him change it so that the man's name was first.

desertgirl - there are loads of examples over the past few decades of protest about discrimination. You don't hear people talking about 'half caste' children any more, it's mixed race, or dual heritage (see, it keeps developing). Since civil partnerships came in it's common to hear people talking about wives or husbands when they are referring to a gay couple in a civil partnership. Decent people don't talk about 'spastics' or 'mongols'.

People are less likely to refer to people in jobs that are considered 'important' as men when they mean everyone - doctors are not automatically referred to as 'he' unless you happen to know it's a woman any more. You do still get 'businessmen' but often there are other formulations used (business leaders, on the news, for instance). Housewife is still used, but is not automatic and default any more.

We also use chair instead of chairman, actor instead of actor/actress, manager instead of manager/manageress, firefighter instead of fireman, police officer instead of policeman. I think it does have an effect on the way we think.

Why would you write Sirs/Mesdames? Just write Sir/Madam. they're not all going to be crowding round reading it at the same time.

Dromedary when DH and I married he closed his bank account and we made mine into a joint account. Even though he was added onto an account I'd had in my own right for 12 years his name went first. When I asked the bank about it they just said it was always done like that, and my name couldn't go first .

It sounds really petty to care, and I don't remember losing any sleep over it, but at the time I was the one earning and paying into the account (which is why we did it that way).

Waffly, in legal correspondence between law firms you are addressing the firm and not the individual lawyer so it would be incorrect to say "Dear Sir/Madam". To clarify, you usually know exactly who you are writing to, because you will probably have spoken on the phone many times to Jane Brown of Bloggs & Bloggs to discuss the case, and when Jane answers the phone you say "hello Jane" not "hello madam" or "hello Ms Brown". You may well have sent a Without Prejudice email to Jane, which began, "Dear Jane". But when you write an official letter, it must never ever, ever be addressed to "Dear Jane" (though it will bear Jane's reference at the top). Conceptually, all the partners are sitting round reading it together. And conceptually the letter comes from all the partners in your firm- if small enough their names are listed at the bottom of the notepaper, if too many there's a note to say a list can be inspected at the head office.

PS Dromedary, that is truly shocking. I think I would have closed the account and gone to another bank.

Bump