to address a woman in a formal letter as "Ms"?

[twattock]

Here's the problem; as a solicitor the formal way to address correspondence is "Dear sirs/your faithfully" or "Dear (insert as appropriate)/yours sincerely". But I often have to write to a woman without knowing what title she has given herself-so do I use Ms? I dont want to assume anything obviously, so I can't use Miss or Mrs, so what would people prefer?

Have been thinking about how Amanda and Jessie can fight this without being the annoying woman in the office who kicks up a fuss. Actually I think the only person who can do this is the senior partner at the law firm who receives the missive addressed Dear Sirs and sends it back with annotations. Do we know any very senior partners in law firms who would do this? We need a secret ally up high who is senior enough to say "now hold on a minute"!

Ha ha. I wish I did!

Just so no one misunderstands me, I don't think Dear Sirs is gender neutral. I just choose to deliberately consider it as such because I really couldn't get worked up every single time I got a letter when I had already worked out what a massive 'kick up a fuss and single self out' pointless argument it would be to try and change it at my firm.

TBH, even if you are the most senior person in the place, you'd still have to be prepared for a lot of eye-rolling and opposition (damn uppity women making a fuss about nothing...). And partnerships aren't dictatorships: the senior partner can't unilaterally change the rules unless it's a very small firm.

I'm a Ms, I've always been a Ms. My problem in my present job is that I'm dealing with a lot of old-fashioned individuals outside the organisation, a lot of whom have met me and clocked the wedding ring. I've had several people continue to address me as Mrs even though I've actually made a point, after the first occurrence, of telling them that I'm Ms. I'm afraid I get The Rage when I get letters from them. (And don't get me started on the one who addresses emails to "Dear Madam" even though my first name and surname are in the email address)

Well gosh-what a fascinating discussion! So to summarise, our conclusion is that it should be dear sirs and mesdames/yours faithfully, and dear Ms/yours sincerely? I am happy to give it a go and shall report back!

There is the very occasional woman who is prepared to be that woman. Helena Kennedy? Cherie Blair (but she is in a chambers so probably not in receipt of these letters addressed to a partnership? Are chambers partnerships?).

It takes a brave woman to do it but there is the occasional woman at the very top who has political capital to spare.

But I agree about the eye-rolling. My sister is a barrister and was recently working with another barrister (on the other side of the case) who kept referring to her as "pretty girl". So my sister would hand over a document or whatever and this other barrister would say "Thank you pretty girl". Really unprofessional in any environment let alone a court when you are on opposing sides. She later mentioned it very casually and in passing to her own colleague (male) who was on her side in the case and that colleague got really annoyed with her and said "for heaven's sake, why must you take everything so personally?" So there is a lot of reactionary anger that gets unleashed when you even so much as mention these issues. And this hostility came from a barrister who himself works in a right-on chambers and who should be vaguely on board with this stuff.

So pleased to work in a profession where Dr is the default!!

Similar in mine, but in some cases, we don't know if we should use Dr or Prof.
Although I don't think most Profs mind being Dr.

About two months ago, a reporter friend of mine quoted me in an article she was writing for the Daily Mail.
When I saw the piece in print I was surprised to see I was named as Mrs Day, not Ms Day. She explained that in Daily Mail land there is "no such thing as Ms" and as I'm married- even though I kept my name- I'm a Mrs.

Bonkers. But unsurprising for the Daily Misogynist.

I prefer no title at all, but if one has to be used, then I prefer Ms.

And, yes, I am married - but I've been Ms since I was 18 and at Uni - so over 30 years.

My marital status is of no relevance to others.

And I kept my own name too!

seeker I remember that! Lydia (née Bennett) was an asshole. But you did remind me of the only example of 'being married makes you better' I approve of: in A Hazard of Hearts (dreadful Barbara Cartland novel which I only read because the film starred Helena Bonham Carter) when the maid servant sassed off to the toxic MiL "the Duchess of Blah thanks the Dowager for her kind invitation..."

But part of the reason that was OK was it's in a frickin' costume drama! Less funny was when I had a grievance against former employers and they peppered their defense (in addition to outright lies -a whole 'nother story) with mentions of me (30 year old divorced) as Miss Jones, and one of the problems I had with the firm (a sulky, lazy 19-year old) as Mrs Smith. That had to have looked a certain way to anybody who hadn't met the parties, and they knew it. Grrr!

just use ms or "dear sir or madam"

fuck em-it's my firm! moderately revolutionary though. it will be interesting to see what the response is.

The Sirs thing is just archaic, nobody reads it and thinks it means a bunch of men individually. There is so much actual sexism around that it seems really odd to pick on this one - when there are still people who find 'Ms' offensive (including on this thread) after how long?

(Car salesman the other day told me I would 'not be a man' if I buy a Japanese car having had a European one - but claimed to have noticed I'm already not; wonder where that one comes from!)

I am married, and I always use Ms., if I have to use a title. I personally do not feel that they need to know if I am married or single or whatever, or even if I am male or female. I think my name should be enough.

I think you would have to put Ms if you didn't know. If it was me I would then make it was clear that I was Mrs for the next time. If they don't specify then carry on with Ms.

desertgirl, I am one who thinks Dear Sirs means exclusively men. Because it literally does. Archaically it also meant "Dear Men", and so it is utterly bizarre to say "oh of course it means any women too". No, it does not, I will not be an afterthought.

If I read Dear Sirs sent to my laboratory, I would assume that the sender had not bothered to notice the women, and I would send back a long list of them. I am fully prepared and proud to be that woman.

if you were in a law firm or similar, whiteflame, you wouldn't think that because you would know perfectly well that it is the relevant form - just as 'yours faithfully' is the relevant form for sign off.

Nobody is suggesting using it for general correspondence are they?

I'm finding this one interesting. I am very recently divorced, due to ex dickhead having an affair. But I work in a school and have always been referred to by the DC as Mrs exH. My unmarried surname was very ordinary, think 'Jones' and my married surname is also ordinary, think 'Williams.' I'm not that fussed about changing it, I have a slight preference to go back to my old name, but my kids have asked me not to and it's hassle. I'm still called Mrs exH at school and won't be asking primary children to call me Ms exH.

Is it about status? Do I feel more respected being Mrs rather than having been 'demoted' by my divorce to Ms? Have to think about this. On the phone it's much easier to just call yourself Mrs, but in writing I've tended to use Ms or Mrs interchangeably so far.

I always used Dear Sir or Madam rather than Dear Sir and would use Ms if I didn't know someone's preference in a letter.

In RL, it's only really in schools that Mrs or Miss is used a lot in everyday conversation, maybe in shops as well? I never used it at work (before children) it was always first name terms. I suppose accountants and solicitors are still operating in the 19th Century as far as formality is concerned, but in most commercial businesses it's much more informal and emails have taken over from letters.

I am astonished by this thread - I had no idea that "Dear Sirs" was even acceptable nowadays. I work in the arts, and there are lots of women and gay men in my field. Dinosaurs would be given short shrift!

Incidentally, I am married but call myself Ms. Maiden Name. My ILs know this, and forlornly protest by addressing me as Mrs. Married Name when they send birthday cards etc. No-one else, including my husband, could care less!

The status thing is interesting. I became a Ms when I started work (in the late 80's) because I thought it made me sound more grown up on paper than being a Miss, and I didn't think my relationship status was anyone else's business.

I didn't feel the need to move on to becoming a Mrs husband's name when I got married, because I still didn't think my relationship status was anyone's business. And by then I felt pretty grown up (a number of years had passed , and becoming Mrs husband's name would have felt like I was becoming someone else).

The only people who have called me Mrs Husband's name in recent times are DCs' schools. They only did it once . DC2 went through a stage of being a bit miffed that I didn't have the same surname as DCs and DH, but he quickly got over it.

I would never use Ms myself, but if someone doesn't know if I'm married, it doesn't bother me. When someone is aware I am married I want to be addressed as Mrs, and Ms really rubs me up the wrong way.

I can tell you I wouldn't take "Dear Sirs" lying down in any profession, desertgirl. And the sooner we stand up against it, the sooner the brainwashing that it is acceptable ANYWHERE will stop.

there are far more pressing issues in terms of human relationships/gender equality to deal with in your average law firm than the fact that correspondence between firms is started with "Dear Sirs".

And there isn't an obvious replacement. What would you put? Dear Sirs and/or Madams(Mesdames)? The whole 'Sir' bit is archaic in itself, you wouldn't address the individuals concerned as Sir or Madam if you were actually talking to them

In old skool books of etiquette, Mrs was standard form for a divorced woman as well as married - you just went back to your own Christian name (so Mrs Jane Brown) instead of using your former husband's (as in, Mrs John Brown). So if you like Mrs and want to keep on using it after divorce, feel free.

Agree that schools are hideously old-fashioned - every female teacher is Miss or Mrs. When I go into ds's (primary) school I get called Mrs, even though they know I kept my own surname so it's even more ridiculous (am a governor so go into school quite regularly). I did consider explaining I'm a Ms, but seemed unnecessarily pointed as I was being introduced to a class of small children at the time.

Are secondary schools more enlightened?

Someone always says 'there are more pressing issues to deal with' whatever the topic of the thread is. If we left everything alone because 'there are more pressing issues' nothing would ever change!

Female genital mutilation isn't going to be stamped out because people stop objecting to 'Dear Sirs'. I agree there are other pressing issues to deal with in law firms than 'Dear Sirs' but that's no reason to ignore the very clear statement that women have no place in law and couldn't possibly be partners.