to address a woman in a formal letter as "Ms"?

[twattock]

Here's the problem; as a solicitor the formal way to address correspondence is "Dear sirs/your faithfully" or "Dear (insert as appropriate)/yours sincerely". But I often have to write to a woman without knowing what title she has given herself-so do I use Ms? I dont want to assume anything obviously, so I can't use Miss or Mrs, so what would people prefer?

[SirBoobAlot]

I always use Ms when writing to someone unless I know for a fact they call themselves Mrs, and use Ms for myself as well. I hate that as a woman you have to declare whether you are married to the world.

[edam]

Backing up a bit, can I just say very firmly that Ms does NOT have 'historical associations with divorce' or any association with divorce at all. That is a myth. The people who fall for this myth are Really Not Paying Attention or thinking about what they are saying.

[Beveridge]

One of my pupils apparently thought that Ms meant that the teacher in question (i.e me) used to be a man.

I do teach in a cultural backwater. As if you hadn't already guessed.

[WhoKnowsWhereTheTimeGoes]

That's another one I hate "maiden name". I don't have a maiden name, I never have had a maiden name, I have a surname. If I ever changed it I would have a previous surname.

Annie - I am baffled too. I feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall with this particular issue.

[AmandaPayne]

Jessie - Just think of the thrill that went round my firm when we changed name and everyone had the chance to try out a 'new' signature. Wild, us lawyers. Even my secretary used to get a bit of a kick out of signing it (We did have proper rules about signing the firm's name, but if the letter was just circulating hard copies of a contract or whatever and had no real content, she'd type it up from the dictation on headed, sign it, and hand it to me for the nod.)

I didn't know anyone in real life did Alison Jones (Mrs) any more. Actually, I tell a lie. I know one probate lawyer who does it because she deals with a lot of elderly people who get worked up if the don't know.

Congratulations on the promotion!

[desertgirl]

The one that throws me is 'Esq' (from Americans - as someone said, over there it means you are a lawyer of either gender, but it still sounds male to me!)

I use Ms if I don't know, never occurred to me that it would bother anyone; if it did, they ought to make their title more widely known as Ms is the general default - unless you are Continental European (broadly), where once you are a certain age you are Mrs whether married or not.

'Dear Jane Smith' is fine when writing to Quakers (standard form of address for a Quaker you don't know....) but I think has more ability to cause offence (or belief that you are uneducated) than 'Ms Smith' among the rest of the world.

Surely Dear Sirs is not for a letter addressed to anyone, though it may be f.a.o.... have never actually thought of it as gender specific, it is just a formal form of address to a company/firm/business, encompassing women (just like 'you guys' encompasses both!)

[seeker]

Esq generally just means you have a degree, or the person is using it to show that thy think you might have. You use it to a person you think is equal or higher up th social scale than you are- never (perish the thought!) to a "tradesman!

Load of bollocks. Just use no title at all, or Mr or Ms if you have to.

[drjohnsonscat]

Dear Sirs is totally gender specific it's just that we've been trained to ignore ourselves. Try suggesting to men that we replace the "generic" Dear Sirs with Dear Ladies - it's not gender specific, it just relates to a group of people - and see what response you get. They wouldn't put up with it for one second.

[GhoulWithADragonTattoo]

I generally use "Mrs" for myself but have no problem with being addressed as "Ms". It is the most neutral of the female titles and therefore the best one to use in cases of doubt.

[desertgirl]

Not sure that 'ladies' being gender specific means that 'sirs' in that context is too. Just as 'faithfully' doesn't carry its literal meaning at the end of those same letters - they are archaisms, that's all.

[Morloth]

All our correspondence is Ms or Mr.

Haven't had a any complaints.

[seeker]

"Not sure that 'ladies' being gender specific means that 'sirs' in that context is too. Just as 'faithfully' doesn't carry its literal meaning at the end of those same letters - they are archaisms, that's all."

We've just been trained that maleness is the norm, and you have to do something spcial and arduous to accommodate women.So mankind, man the office...dear Sirs. Doesn't mean that they are gender neutral words, though.

[whiteflame]

Another one who categorically doesn't care if "Dear Sirs" is somehow historically technically correct. It is not correct, at all.

And unfortunately getting a Dr title doesn't get you around this issue. Then you end up with people thinking you're stuck up for daring to use your title when requested for one.

[whiteflame]

I am mystified at being offended by Ms... how can you be offended at being afforded the same status as men?

[PanickingIdiot]

I supposed it's the marrieds who are offended...how dare you imply that they failed to acquired a husband.

[seeker]

I think the being offended at Ms is one of those impossible to discuss properly issues. Because (dons tin hat) it's all about women still thinking that being married is an achievement which they want properly publicly recognised. And that being divorced or unmarried is a sign of failure, and that miss or ms implies that. Married women still have a higher status in our society. Unspoken now, but still as powerful as when the flipertygibbet Lydia Bennet insisted on taking precedence over the older, more intelligent and sensible Jane and Elizabeth "because I am the married woman!"

[PanickingIdiot]

Marriage conferring a higher status does still exist, in relation to people holding certain high-profile positions in society, business or politics. And it affects men, too, after a certain age. But I think this concerns only a very small proportion of people, public figures, diplomats etc. I bet none of the patients of the dental surgery who got up in arms about being called a Ms were diplomats or public figures. So if they thought marriage improved their public image, it was mostly in their own heads, which makes the whole thing a bit comical, really.

[GhoulWithADragonTattoo]

I would also always address a letter "Dear Sir or Madam" if it was to an unknown individual. I think "Dear Sirs" is outdated at sexist in this day and age, even to an organisation rather than individuals.

"To whom it may concern" can be useful but is not generally used on letters to specific organisations...

[valiumredhead]

Ms, always Ms.

[drjohnsonscat]

Amazed that anyone thinks Dear Sirs is gender neutral. I can just about cope with mankind but Dear Sirs? We still have a long way to go.

[Pendeen]

I'm Mrs Pendeen.

I don't mind being mistaken as Miss Pendeen. OK so to be asbolutely correct I was Miss SomethingElse before I became Mrs P. - but so what.

I'm Cornish not an American, so don't call me Ms Pendeen!

[DamnBamboo]

I am married and took my husband name so that we all had the same name (me, him and the kids). This was no big deal for me.

I can also use the title Dr.

So in my 'personal' world I use Ms xxxxx mother of DS XXXXX, so I have the same surname as my boys which is the same as my husbands.

It is nobody's business if I am married or not and I use Ms instead of Mrs.

In my professional life, I go by Dr. DamnBamboo.

I suppose I could use the title Dr with my married name too but I don't like using it out of work, and that's the only time I use my married name.

There is no historical meaning to Ms. it has not been around long enough.

It is utterly wrong that there should even be a Miss or a Mrs anyway.

How can someone be offended by Ms, the point being is that you use it because it addressed to a female who's marital status is unknown and/or irrelevant.

[DamnBamboo]

Letter should not by default be addressed

Dear Sirs.

Good god, who thinks that that's ok?

[DamnBamboo]

I know several surgeons, many of the women go by Ms (not all are unmarried), a couple by Mrs.

[Teapot13]

I'm American, and the old-fashioned way to start a letter was Dear Sir (not Sirs). I learned in school, though, in the enlightened 80's, that it should now be Dear Sir or Madam, and that's what I've always done, even working in London. I don't see a problem with this, and Yours faithfully still works at the end. (I have adopted this because I like it -- doesn't really exist in America.)

With regard to my own title, I have to use Ms because I am married but don't use my husband's surname. I know things evolve, but it is only correct to use Mrs with the husband's name. To be Mrs. Teapot I would have to marry my father or brother. I suppose strictly speaking I could remain a Miss, but that seems silly. I do sometimes write Mrs. DHname DHsurname, just to freak people out. This offends me less than Mrs. Teapot.