to think teaching isn't the idea career for mums?

[alisunshine29]

I'm studying for a degree at the moment and had planned to complete my PGCE afterwards but since speaking to the mum of DD's friend I've changed my mind. She's a teacher at the same school as her daughters and they go to breakfast club from 8 and after school club til. 6. She said they are in bed for 7 and then she has a couple of hours more work to do every night, plus a days worth at the weekend. She gets to attend nativity etc but only because they're at the same school otherwise she'd miss those events. AIBU to think a 9-5 job might actually be more practical?

As others have said, Feenie, it depends so much on other factors - length of commute, what dh does, support network etc also level of seniority and experience. Agree newly qualified teachers have to work their socks off for the first few years! But then that's not unique to teaching, all professions the same. Though some such as medicine and nursing much, much worse.

I'm interested in this because i'm currently in the process of gaining experience ( as a TA) prior to swapping from Secondary to Primary. I've done supply post kids as both. What do you mean by "gain time"?

As it happens, I have a lot of gained time this year, because I had a year 11 GCSE class and THREE Year 13 classes - do you honestly think that's been easy!?

Ah, I see, that period when your Year 11's and 13's have gone. That's not empty time, that's time you're used as constant cover in my experience!

Feenie, I don't know because I don't teach in primary.

I am sure it is possible that you have to stay every night until 6, every weekend too, and every holiday, but I am sure, in a 52 week year, you get SOME time to do your planning I presume as well that unless you change year groups every single year there is some opportunity for you to reuse stuff?

If the above is not the case and you only get respite to sleep, fair enough

I could not be a primary teacher. I would not want to teach all subjects, and I don't really like small children. Even though I have two of my own.

I have a colleague who regularly stays up until silly-o-clock planning / marking. I can't do that, because I get really inefficient after 9pm, so I stop then, and whatever I've done will have to be good enough.

You shouldn't be really, although I am (voluntarily) covering for an absent colleague. :)

Blackbird- exactly, with you totally that it us not the case that the more hours you put in, the more effective you are. That's what i meant by my martyr comment- not intended to offend anyone but was based on the unique culture (i found) within teaching where it got so competitive based on who's put the most hours in the night before. I think it might be due to many seeing teaching as their "vocation" not a mere profession.

33 kids+ 5 marking subjects a day= marking nightmare. In primary you cannot leave your marking for a week or you would never get caught up!

Teaching is not the ideal fit people presume for a patent. I now teach 2 days a week so have a 15 hour contract. I work double this as does my job share partner. This is not martyrdom but what needs to be done to actually do the job. Those holidays are not such a bonus when you are working double the hours you are paid for. Also there are no exam leave periods when you can plan for the next year so it does get done in the holidays.

If you really want to teach then go for it but go in with your eyes open.

I'm keyed into this discussion, because, as mentioned above, i'm swapping. I've certainly seen in my primary that teachesr swap and re-use resources and that teachers swapping from one year group to another use one anothers old plans and masters in the same way that Secondary teachesr pick up another teachesr scheme of work. I don't see how you'd manage otherwise. No point re-inventing the wheel if someone else has already planned it. I also see the two teachers in my current (Year 6) year, plan together and re-use / team plan stuff in a way that I didn't see at Secondary, which was often, in my experience, "You're teaching this bit of the AS. Off you go and do the SOW!"

Don't know if anyone else has suggested it but there is a big demand for basic skills. There are a lot of jobs that are part time, and/or flexible. If you have good numeracy and literacy skills this might be an option - you would still do the pgce but tailor to this, and complete a 12 week course at level 3 to deliver. So much less work than teaching children and many jobs involved self management so fitting in the children's one off things is doable. Down side is the salary is a little less than starting teacher salary circa £17-24k depending on the company employing you.

Indy, do you honestly not think secondary teachers have to mark? I am an English teacher, and marking is well known to be the cross we have to carry!

On the rare occasions that we do stay in year group, there will be some directive or intiative that ensures that won't be the case.

We get one half day planning, assessment and preparation time which is a drop in the ocean, as you know,

That's it.

I don't work in the holidays - they are for me to be a proper mother to my son. They are a perk, definitely. But in term time he is deposited at the childminders at 7.30am, picked up at between 5 and 6, and I have to work until 10/11p.m. most days after he has gone to bed (and sometimes before, like when I am writing reports), and no amount of 'organisation' will fix that, it is how it is.

Now it's my choice, and just a fact of life. But I do hate it when other teachers post about teachers who do this as 'martyrs', or that they just need 'better organisation'. It's not true and it's bloody irritating.

My brother is a primary teacher, and I teach secondary. It has become clear over the years that actually our jobs are quite, quite different. He doesn't have gained time, but neither does he have the mania that is exam and coursework season. Both of us are happy we made the right choice re age group!

I think the point that Feenie is trying to make is that if you teach primary, there are no useful spaces and gaps and quiet times during the working day or week. It's full-on for the time that you are in school and you do marking after teaching, along with most of your planning.
Reusing material is rarely possible, partly because of the changing year group and mostly because of the continuous changing, upgrading, backtracking and U-turns imposed on primaries over the last decade.
Plus she's probably just finished reports, planning transitions to next year and rampaging towards the end of term with the track running out and the throttle stuck on full ahead.
So now is not a very good time for philosophical questions and calm judgements about workload. It is a good time for serious chocolate and bubble baths.

University teachers tend to get shorter holidays nowadays as summer schools etc and the pay is APPALLING compared to school teaching. Rare to get security of tenure either and hours (and marking of lengthy essays!) similarly long! I got out but anyone still doing that genuinely has my sympathy. unlike school teachers for reasons above!

Hey! Hey! Feenie!

Found a cake for those moments when you feel like a cog in the machine.
incrediblediary.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/steampunk-inspired-cake_LDD53_59.jpg

Sigh. I didn't say anyone had to be "better" organised; I said (as advice to the OP) to be "well" organised. I could take offence with the idea that teachers are not 'proper' mothers to their children during term time but that would get a bit silly, so I won't.

I do think there is a lot of being a martyr in it for some teachers, secondary as well as primary. I understand perfectly well the point about not having gained time but we're talking about getting a few hours 4 weeks or so at the end of the year; it isn't as if we're sitting on our arses the rest of the time

Oh for goodness sake if course I don't think that. Nor did I say it. We are expected to mark every piece of work from every child every day. That is what I am talking about. Others have commented on fortnightly marking being the expectation in their secondary. English would be different I would imagine.

In 15 years of teaching this is the first year I will stay in the same year group. However, new planning means all science and social subjects will change. Language and literacy always does depending on the group of kids. Maths is similar. I get 1 hour a week non contact time which is usually when meetings are scheduled with other agencies. I am not disorganised, far from it. The hours I work are what I need to do in order to be effective. If I didn't do them then my lessons would be half arsed and chaotic.

At least you aren't stuck in one place, I suppose. That has happened to my friend; she's been with year 1 so long that she is struggling to get promotions as she hasn't got a varied experience with ages. Must be frustrating from a planning POV, though.

I love moving about tbh. I would get stale if I stayed in the same place and I don't think it's good from a development point of view either. However, planning is hellish. Swings and roundabouts though.

Excellent post by Eyes at 16:35 ^

Obviously it depends on a whole host of things. I have lost a yr 11 class, but gained time is not happening. We have 6 teachers (out of 40) on long term sick and our HT has decided that this "quiet" time is the ideal time to send people off for courses etc so cover is manic. Also, it depends on subject. I teach Performing Arts. Last week we had an Arts Week in school, so I was out late 2 evenings. I am lucky in that DH's job is more flexible (and better paid) than mine.

If I was being picky, though, I would say that a secondary teacher who has nearly planned the whole of next year can't possibly have done it properly. How can you plan a year in advance when planning needs to take into account so many things about individual students and their progress?

I did wonder about that, EvilTwins.

Thank you EyesUnderaRock - you spoke for me much more eloquently than I can manage - am actually in the middle of reports and post Ofsted so extra snappy. FAB cake!

God, how rude!