re Facebook and the pictures of James Bulger's killers

[NessieMcFessie]

A friend of mine on Facebook has posted the pictures of James Bulger's killers as they look 'today'. I have no idea where they have come from or if they are actually the two men involved (and I don't know if she knows any of this information).

AIBU to report these pictures? She has had loads of support under her post.

Very good point about Mary Bell having been successfully rehabilitated, Holly.

There have been many attempts to seek explanations for Venables and Thompson being able to conceive of and do such an evil thing. They were clearly children who had been warped by their families and by their appalling experiences - perhaps adding to some inherent streak of evil, who knows? They also acted in tandem - and there's plenty of evidence that even adults will act far worse in the company of others than they will on their own.

But what's our excuse? We all - as a society - put 10 year olds on trial as if they were adults. It was a disgusting spectacle. The whole country baying for blood - no better than bear baiting.

They did something terribly evil but they were children barely of the age of criminal responsibility, and children whose entire lives had been rotten. What's our excuse for the way we behaved? Did it make people feel good, did demonising them reassure everyone that we are moral beings who could never do anything evil? I don't think enjoying working yourself up into a lather about a pair of children who were not able to be a threat to anyone by that stage is particuarly moral or decent.

Whatever, the question is what happens to them now. Personally, I think Venables should stay inside. He's clearly not safe and not able to cope with life outside prison. The child porn should be enough to ensure he stays locked up for good. Thompson presumably is doing OK outside, given he's not been returned to prison. I think we should all walk away and mind our own business, tbh.

I once interviewed a rehabilitated murderer. He had carried out two horrible, horrible crimes, involving extreme violence. He served 23 years - each one of them justified - and has been out on licence for several years now. He will always be on licence, just like any other lifer.

He had an appalling childhood, and ended up homeless at 10, his mother dead, his father a violent thug. He told me about being a runaway child. How he used to walk down the street at twilight, peering in through the windows of the houses he passed, seeing familes watching TV together or eating dinner, and wondering how on earth he could get himself a family or a life like that, and knowing it was hopeless.

That doesn't justify what he did. But it does perhaps explain why that child became a man who could use horrific violence - he didn't have the constraints tha the rest of us have. At a tender age, he didn't have anyone who gave a damn whether he lived or died, let alone whether he had food in his belly, shoes on his feet, or whether he was afraid.

What made a difference for him was having a prison tutor who believed he was a human being. Who educated him, and enabled him to understand how to put himself in someone else's shoes.

He says he is spending the rest of his life trying to prove himself to her. To prove that he was worth the investment of her time - to prove that he can contribute something to society. He said he knows it would be ridiculous to think he could ever somehow make up for what he did - nothing can achieve that. But I think his life now has some worth, and has made a contribution. Not one that wipes out his crimes, but one that is more ruddy use than just leaving him to rot.

I know there's just no helping some people rodand, and others should never be walking around free, but I dunno, it's just not effective.

I haven't got strong opinions that prison should be abolished or anything, and I don't do hugs

If it were my child I would probably find it difficult to overcome the feeling that I didn't want the person to live, even though I totally oppose it now.

But I would be a broken person and not someone who should have any sway over stuff like that.

I have always been on the fence over whether I think T & Vs identities should have been kept a secret - Well, as long as i've known about the case, I was the same age as James when it happened, So obviously i didn't know much then.

This facebook thing has convinced me they should have remained an absolute secret.

Not for their benefit. But James' family.

One man killed himself after being accused of being Robert Thompson. I hate to think how James' family must feel about that - I sincerely hope they do not feel any guilt over this. I can only, thankfully, imagine what must go through your head with a case like this - But i have been thinking - How would i feel if someone innocent lost their life, in the name of my child, in the name of justice for me and my family? I wouldn't want it.

I can't understand how people can use this innocent boys names in actions that end in the same result as T&Vs crimes - And they sit there patting themselves on the back for it.

I just hope to god James' Mum does not feel in any way connected or responsible for the actions of mindless idiots that do this.

Edam, do you think that public opinion/revulsion at their crimes, fueled by the media attention, played a part in the decision to try them in an adult court, or was it just that they didn't know what else to do with them?

My cousin just posted these on my fb, i dont want those pictures on my wall - i wasn't on the jury, i wasn't there and it is not my place to act as judge.

Agent - I don't know but I suspect that it was revulsion at their crimes. And of course that reaction is right and proper. The crime was revolting. But that doesn't justify turning the trial into some kind of spectacle, or justify people who banged on the sides of the prison van taking them into court.

good point dizzy I've had 3 different ones tonight.To be fair the bloody images for a lot of the shite on face book are ridiculous, im forever hiding posts of people.
How ever i watched an interveiw with James mother saying she had been informed venables had been socializing in the area she lived in and felt she could have been stood at the side of him in a bar and wouldnt reconise him -that made her feel sick, and rightly so.

Right im off, apparantly im neglecting Dp and its my turn to brew up!

edam I would have missiled the van if it was my child....of course if i had a missile launcher! Which i dont honest!

It was a over wraught display of emotion and to be fair it mirrored the majority of the nation.
I think there should have been a media black out for peace of the family.

I totally agree with you Edam, it is a very good explanation of why thse boys what they did, it's very sad tat chidren are subjected to abusive and neglectful childhoods like this, there must have also been something more in their psyche, that combined with environmental factors and working in tandem cased tem to brutally murder that little boy

rodandtheemu - What would you have done if it was your 10 year old IN the van? Still out with the missile launcher?

I can only assume that the answer would be that your child wouldn't be there, having never had the horrific upbringing that those children had. To my mind, it was still children in that van - children whose blood everyone wanted.

This in no way takes away from the awful awful awful crime - they of course deserved punishment, and the family deserved justice.

I agree with edam - a great post.

I have now seen a third set of photographs purporting to be RT and JV. That means at least four and possibly six innocent men are at risk. As for the real RT and JV they are not worth a minute of our time. If they have been rehabilitated they will live with the horror of what they did forever. If not I hope they rot in prison as they surely will reoffend in some way.

Fantastic post edam genuine insight. Thank you.

Just to say that the Mary Bell case was different. The first murder was apparently a game that went wrong-there was no torture and no premeditation. The second one I think was deliberate-she didn't seem to understand that death was permanent. I taught at the school she went to in the term after the summer when the crimes were committed. The staff all remembered her as a quiet, uncared for child who lived in poverty with abusing parents and grandparents. The other girl involved was May Bell (no relation) who was older but apparently had SN of some kind and she was completely exonerated at the trial as she didn't understand. Mary too seemed unaware of the seriousness of what she had done. It is interesting that the public villification of MB at the time was less intense that that we have for James Bulger's killers. That is because of the viciousness of the murder and the premeditation.
Simply both crimes were horrific but one was evil beyond comprehension.

Just to clarify-I taught in the school after she was already in custody. The case was very much at the centre of school life then and the children were all fully aware of what had happened.

I have also reported this to Facebook. Very disappointed and disgusted that they are apparently happy for this to be shared around the net. Hate the incitement to mob mentality and possible lynch threat; these photos are illegal and not verified and have inspired hate filled, sick comments; people seeming happy to judge without knowing facts & showing no understanding that this awful crime was committed by very disturbed, I'll treated children; where is the compassion for all involved. Cannot understand facebooks decision and think more should complain. Maybe then they would listen

I think this thread has now took on a nature v nurture tone, which has been raging for a long time and still hasnt been won not even by the amature phycologists on here!

Nature endows us with inborn abilitys, personalities and traits then nurture takes these genetic qualities and moulds us in to who we are when we grow and mature.

They both ahve a part to play.

If these boys did what they did because its nurture thats at fault, we are who our parents shape us in to, why are there differences in peoples sexuality, why are people gay/straight?

While, genes and enviroment DO have an effect, it does not MAKE people do things, we still CHOOSE to do things - thats what seperates us from animals.

Being ill- treated does not make child killers, the agressive traits are all ready there.

I do not have one ounce of compassion for T and V all my emotions go to the Bulger family.

nessie I honestly dont know how i would feel if it was my child in the van, horrified, disgusted - in them-myself, I certainly would'nt feel sorry for them. They took a life of a innocent, vunerable baby - it was premeditated. They could have backed out at any moment.

Maybe I'm not left wing enough....

I honestly dont know how i would feel if it was my child in the van, horrified, disgusted - in them-myself, I certainly would'nt feel sorry for them. They took a life of a innocent, vunerable baby - it was premeditated

I would feel exactly the same. most people would. I hope I would be able to accept that my feelings shouldn't be the sole basis on which justice was dispensed to those children who had perpetrated these crimes. My feelings as a victim should be balanced by proportionality and rehabilitation.

I totally agree with you zukie, JV was even bragging about it in recent times, he is into chid porn. Obviously their punishment was not enough

yes, he hasn't exactly tried to change for the better has he. I think they should both be still imprisoned and not had identity changes etc.

Thanks, randall and nessie.

For those wondering about genes and the environment - it's not as simple as either/or or even both. There's no such thing as a gene 'for' something as simple as eye colour - it's controlled by a whole load of different genes. How much less likely is that there is a gene 'for' psychopathy, for instance?

Also, the emerging science of epigenetics is exploring the mechanisms that control how genes are expressed and whether they are turned on or off - I don't actually understand it to be honest, it's one of those subjects that are fascinating but explanations just slide off my mind and make me go 'wibble'.

A book I read by a psychologist who specialises in personality claimed the reason parents treat their children differently (and we all do, however much we try not to or deny it) is the parent reacting to the child's phenotype. I'm not sure it's that simple, tbh.

We can all be amateur psychologists - I think JV wants to go back inside. It's safe there, in reality it's all he knows. His formative years were institutionalised, the outside world? I doubt he sleeps at night.

RT on the other hand, a shrewder character, if reports to be believed, more intelligent. Knows how to not draw attention to himself. I think I've read (although how much truth?) that he is homosexual and in a stable relationship.

20 years is a long time, they are very differnt people to when they were ten. I know I am.

I draw parallels with The Shawshank Redemption (I know its a film) but Morgan Freemans character, Red, he changed for the better didnt he? knew he'd made a foolish, tragic mistake as a teenager and paid for it dearly.

I don't know what the correct solution to either of those boys would have been. The judicial system used the tools in place at the time - and an adult prison would have turned them back to crime I think. They have been given a chance to make good their lives. I hope they do.

JV I think will probably end up committing suicide. I really don't think he is equipped to cope, or come to terms for the past. Some will say thats a fitting end.

oops, sorry, meant to say Zukie that yes, I'm quite prepared to believe James' family have been let down by the criminal justice system. It's never been designed to look out for the interests of victims - that's quite a recent idea - and is very bad at it.