to not know what unconditional parenting is?!

[GirlOutNumbered]

Just read it on a thread. I have no idea what this is?

I agree, some of the UP things I read, I think I do that then I remember the shouting and me being bitch mum who says what is what. My parenting could be better, I could be more patient and I'll admit I don't always like the way I handle things. Do roll my eyes at some of the stuff I've read where some UP parents seem to think that non UP parents only love their kids when the child is doing as it is told or is being nice, that we shout and bark demands all the time without ever explaining why or trying to rationalise with our children, that we only get them to do something by rewarding or punishing.

Would still like to know from a dedicated UPer what you would do if your child refused to brush their teeth.

LaQueen, loving the orthodontist post.

I would prefer to think of it as being flexible- lots of people start with theories but their baby hasn't read the same books! e.g. The midwife told me that all babies liked being swaddled but mine didn't.
Many of the greatest disciples of AK are HEers- as someone has pointed out bedtime can be extended if you can sleep in the next day and don't have to be up and out for school. I liked routine and DCs in bed at a reasonably early time - all parents are different too.

If you insist from the start that a DC has their teeth cleaned it stops being a fight and becomes routine.

Yes because as the parent you are in charge in a loving sensible way.

The child is the child and so not able to make decisions such as NOT brushing their teeth.

I do feel so sorry for some kids with such Barmy parents.

It is so much easier because you have them from birth - you are not taking on someone else's DCs with bad habits. This is why I like routines- you can just raise your eyebrows and say 'but this is what we always do'.
Bedtime was bath, drink, teeth clean, story, sleep. It has it's drawbacks as they weren't good at being kept up late, but if you want to keep them up late and be more flexible then you choose a different system- parents are all different too.

Very true Maryz

hey do it automatically.

And then they turn into fecking teenagers and refuse to do anything at all .

that

Still trying to work out a routine! But at least they brush their teeth - or I hope they do! is that the crappy wee bracket thing everyone's been going on about - just popped my crappy wee bracket cherry.

What I think is wooly woo here is claiming people are smug for reading about parenting. Or saying people are a bit mad for following UP but at the same time ridiculing them or saying it must be crap if they are not following it correctly according to what they think it means. Or saying that most people muddle through and it's good but if you read UP then 'cherry pick' you are under some false delusion about either muddling through or cherry picking, and are an idiot for being so. Or being snide about how amusing it all is to see people genuniely just trying to do well and explain their perspective getting narked because they've been accused of being smug, ineffective, bringing up selfish brats, being inconsistent in their thinking and assuming they are better than everyone else.

For clarity: I don't assume I'm better than everyone else - I just assume that I'm doing better than I would do if I hadn't taken the time to think and reflect on what I am doing. I am NOT suggesting that if you don't read you aren't thinking about what you are doing; it's just that I use reading parenting books as part of that process. The absolute insistence that I am a mug for doing so is what I find hostile about this thread.

My child has to clean his teeth. It is non-negotiable, same as he has to walk on the pavement, not on the road. I have never threatened him with anything in order that he do so. I have never offered rewards to get him to do so. I have sometimes negotiated over how and when that will happen, but the framework for negotiation is usually quite limited. Sort of like he can walk in the middle of the pavement, or at the side, but not on the actual road, he can brush his teeth now or in five minutes, with this brush or that, we can put the toothpaste on with fingers or scrub it in, or he can do mine and I can do his. At no point do I show disapproval for him when he doesn't want to and I sympathise with him when he doesn't want to.
This is probably not very much different to what anyone else, UP or not is doing, but it is different if I just followed my instinct and told him it was happening now and got a bit shouty and irritable with him when he didn't want to. What I attribute to UP is the way it has taught me to sympathise with him in his desire to have just a modicum of control about his world, rather than see it as a challenge to me that I can win because I have more power and should win because I have more knowledge.

That this is not so very different from what 'common sense' people might do is not a failure of UP or of mine for misunderstanding it. It is proof that common sense isn't common to you if your own experiences of being parented aren't 'common'. And anyway, fuck common sense, that just means most people do it and since most people at various times in history have smacked their wives, believed in dragons, thought the universe revolved around the earth ec fucking cetera forgive me if I don't just assume that what people commonly believe is correct just because it's 2013 and we know a bit more than what we used to. I know we are all just doing the best we can, I'm just taking advice from a book rather than thinking I already know it all. Explain, please, why that makes me a mug? Or smug? or a bit mad?

See sparkly I don't get the line ' at no point do I show disapproval if he doesn't want to!'

It just wouldn't have occurred to mine to think there was an option or a not now later route. It was teeth time so end of.

I never saw myself as trying to get control of my kids, I was in control because I AM the adult.

I didn't have the time or inclination to negotiate or argue. I think my kids are well adjusted adults and teens.

Gawd, you guys are putting the frighteners up me about DS's braces and the state of his teeth underneath .

I had to do the headlock thing to get his teeth brushed when he was little. He's 13 now and I still nag cajole & threaten to make him do it. Problem is toothrot starts happening as soon as sugar hits the teeth so the window to get it done before harm is done is too small for my comfort zone. Especially when I am tired & wanted to go to bed 20 minutes ago, and am having to snarl to keep other DC in bed simultaneously. I opt for threats and rants because they are quicker and more effective than reason.

Well done to anyone who has managed to raise perfectly rational teenagers who fully appreciate the merits of good hygiene you big fat liars.

I agree not seeing why it's smug. I don't use "UP" to mean "I follow the book to the letter" but something more like "My first resort isn't a naughty step/reward chart".

And perhaps that wouldn't be someone else's first resort either, but my experience on here is that it always seems to be suggested as soon as you ask for help or advice with a problem... it's certainly the first resort on TV programmes like Supernanny etc. I don't particularly remember my childhood discipline, so I can't draw on that, although since a conversation I've had recently I think it was that my mum was more like what I think of as "UP" (although she never read a parenting book in her life) and my dad was more heavy-handed, reactionary and punitive which really made me build up a negative, frightening feeling around "being in trouble" and really strongly not want my child to experience that.

It's only been from these UP threads where everyone throws around the faces and accusations of being smug and "Tch! But that's ridiculous, everyone knows THAT, that's nothing special!" that I've realised maybe most people do this kind of thing anyway. Although TBH I do think it's quite a mumsnet-specific thing, because most people I know in real life don't... or perhaps they just don't think of it as discipline or anything special that they're doing, it's just the way they've always been with their DC.

I'm rambling. But I have found UP helpful and I think it's unfair that it has a bad reputation for being permissive, because done properly it isn't.

FWIW I wouldn't have a problem with a HCP showing my DC a picture of what might happen in real life if they don't do something, although I might think it a bit heavy-handed, at least it's true. What I'm not keen on is when people threaten consequences for you, which I have had happen. It's okay at times, but most of the time it's pretty rude - he's my child and I'll decide whether that's an offence or not.

Oh god lljkk! I can only wish you luck - I have all that to come!

I agree sparklyboots just because something is "common" doesn't mean it's "sense"

In times past childhood was actually very short. You had infancy, that was it, after which a child would be expected to contribute economically to the family, run errands and generally be useful. I am inclined to think that one of the reasons children are so vulnerable to the abuse of adults is because of the extended length of childhood. Children are seen as problems to manage, they are a burden to be dealt with or a project to work on. They have little autonomy and control over their lives and environment. No wonder the teenage years are now so problematic. Adolescence is a fairly new phenomena and presents problems because children rebel, but why? what if they had nothing to rebel against? what if they were fully autonomous people with rights and responsibilities and we didn't see them as a problem that merited control.

lljkk - bribery works well with the braces and teeth cleaning! It doesn't matter two hoots if the are cleaning them because they want to or for the reward- as long as they are clean. Luckily the braces are only a temporary measure.
It is quite different from offering a reward to walk on a pavement - that is just common sense.
People forget that SuperNanny is called in when the DCs are out of control and the parents can't cope- her methods are not necessary for DCs who are generally fine but just showing normal childish emotions.

I think that rebelling, or not rebelling, is down to personality rather than parental methods.

I think it is due to the fact that we have extended childhood to compensate for the fact that we need different skills in the workforce and fewer workers. Childhood is getting longer.

Parents extend it by not giving responsibility - they won't let go and they smother and overprotect (not all of course)

How do they smother and over protect?