to ttc if I think I will abort if the HG sets in again?

[ICBINEG]

So DH and I have conceived immediately on two occasions, one early miscarriage and one birth. I had hideous soul destroying sickness almost all of the way through pregnancy. We are beginning to start thinking about having another child, but I feel almost certain I couldn't go through another pregnancy like the last one. My understanding of HG is that it is unlikely to strike twice (although you are slightly more likely to get it if you had it before) and that each pregnancy may be fine or not.

So is it unreasonable to ttc if I think I might abort due to HG?

If we conceive and then I get horribly sick is it unreasonable to abort and try again?

Given we would only ever have one more child and seem to be able to conceive at will this might be more a case of choosing to bring to term the baby that doesn't make me horrendously sick for 9 months rather than wasting life etc.

I'm not sure I can really buy into that argument though....

(ps. if you are of the never abort under any circumstances camp then please don't bother posting...I know that opinion exists and am not in the slightest bit swayed by it. I am interested in hearing from other with grey zone opinions on abortion as to which side of their personal line this falls).

^Trying a pregnancy out for size with no commitment to seeing it through is thoroughly immoral.

You have the benefit of hindsight here, use it.^

This^

You know that you can't cope with HG (you believe - actually, you did cope with it once and didn't abort). If you are unwilling to see the pregnancy through, don't start it. I can't quite believe that abortion is seen as such a soft option to be honest.

I wont mention the consequences to the foetus, because I realise you don't think that it has feelings, but you clearly have a naive view about how an abortion can affect everyone involved (parents, grandparents, siblings) and when we're talking about a wanted child??! How will you decide when the HG's bad enough? Will you abort at the first whiff of nausea or will you get to 5 months and see if it's abated yet? Would your DH want to see you really, really sick before he contemplated it or would he take your word for it that the HG was on it's way back. There are so many 'slippery slope' arguments here that I can't see how your family could possibly emerge without some serious damage. If you can't contemplate seeing the pregnancy through based on your past experience, then seriously don't start it. There are other ways to expand your family. None of them easy, but I think they would be easier than what you are contemplating. Good luck navigating this OP. HG is no picnic, and neither is it morning sickness. It's life threatening and terrifying at times. No-one is denying that, but if you know you can't handle it, just don't go there at all.

Ahh I think the difference in the stats is due to the 2/3rds number applying to people who have had HG more than once already having it again.

So if I had did conceive and did suffer HG I would be left in the position of knowing it was far more likely than not that every pregnancy would be this way for me. I would have embarked on having another child and be left with essentially a choice of no child or HG.

That I think would be very very difficult to deal with.

You're right. Statistically, a lot hangs on the second pregnancy it seems.

Which only makes the decision to try or not more loaded

Icbineg - I don't think you should consider ttc until you deal with the trauma of your pregnancy. I had crap first pregnany, but nothing compared to yours, and I was really scared of ttc again. I can't even imagine still suffering and ttc again which you are.

I think my stance/opinion is this. You do not know for sure that your next pregnancy will be horrendous. You want another child. You would be prepared to abort if the HG was bad enough.

I think it's rather a simple matter of balancing all these things... the thought of having HG may make you think you'd abort. But would you? I think it's one of those things that you don't know until it happens.

I have two boys, I didn't have HG but I did have rotten pregnancies both times, really really rotten. I vowed after my first that he would be an only child, the thought of going through it again really gave me a feeling of dread. The second pregnancy (conceived when I had to have my coil removed, like about the week after!!) was awful too, but once I got through the 12 week point, I had arranged support for me, my DH was wonderful - when I couldn't move he stepped in - I think this is what kept me going. That and the first flutters in my belly.

The only advice I can give is sometimes you have to suffer to get what yo truly want. If you are sure you'd abort, potentially more than once, then for me, it would not be balanced, I would not TTC. However, you cannot live on what ifs, and you cannot be 100% sre that you would abort even if you felt like it. It's your decision to make, and I absolutely feel for you and support your right to choose, but I do understand some of the outrage... I think perhaps, you are overthinking what ifs. Good luck in whatever you decide.

The idea that 'pro choice is pro choice' is fine: if someone aborts for any reason, that's their choice. I'm totally in agreement with the principle that you can terminate if you wish.

However I am horrified by your planned scenario: pregnant, HG, terminate and try again. It's disgusting to enter into a cycle like that. Pregnant, HG, terminate, STOP is the only way I can see your plan as okay.

I totally get where you are coming from.

I had 2 mcs before I conceived DD and now look back on then with a little sadness but no real regret because if they hasn't happened, I wouldn't have DD.

It is separating the embryo that was lost from the child that might have been born, if the pregnancy has gone ahead. This thinking helped me move on from the miscarriages.

I am pro choice. I support a woman's right to choose and I support a woman's right to come on MN and work through an obviously difficult decision - it would have been better to have posted on a day where you could stick around and reply rather than posting and disappearing. Things got a bit heated in the meantime.

From your subsequent posts, I'd say that you need to talk to a counsellor about your pregnancy and the resulting depression. It's clear that the HG was only the start of the issues that you have and you need help working through the rest before you even consider TTC.

It seems to me that many consider themselves pro choice, but only up to their personal 'moral' line. To accuse the OP of being immoral because her line lies elsewhere is very unfair.

I don't object in principle to the idea of keeping termination as a stand by opt out clause, should you ttc again.

I think that's really understandable. Also having tat option I think hel;ped keep me sane when I was going through it - just basically, one more day, I can do this, just one more day at a time and if it's too much, I can choose that option.

I never did choose that option but it was there and that lessened the terror and panic, for me.

What I object to is the idea of seeing how bad it gets, terminating and then trying again until you find a pregnancy that doesn't make you sick, and keeping that one. It might never happen.

I think that's what I am struggling with. But mainly the obscene concept of choosing a child that doesn't give you HG. That sounds far too close to eugenics for my comfort...if that's what it's called. Sorry I am not an authority on this subject, but the way you describe this - 'which of my children gets to survive'- made me feel very shocked.

YABVU. You do realise that in some cases a termination can lead to complications that cause infertility? so you may not be able to just try again willy nilly.

I am sorry you had such a horrible time. I have suffered horrible complications of pregnancy but I was willing to put up with them as it was very important to us to give our dc a sibling. Perhaps you should stick to one child?...

lickety As many have said, you cannot know what would drive you to abort. People have aborted first pregnancies due to HG who previously would not have considered abortion.

I am certain I could survive a 'normal' pregnancy. I am uncertain I would continue with a pregnancy with certain symptoms attached....

Most women conceive without even considering that they may find the experience so unbearable that they might wish to terminate.

Are they better than me because they haven't thought about it before hand?

Sorry - I should not have used that word, it is far too extreme. Please read my previous post and ignore that line.

I just meant - the blatant choosing of a potential child based on its capacity to fulfil our needs, or not cause us hardship.

I hope that makes some sort of sense.

How would your husband feel about it? Sorry if I've missed that.

soo...you are allowed to terminate a pregnancy because although you want another child at some point, the timing isn't right....

but it is vile to consider terminating a pregnancy because although you want another child the current one is making you unbearably ill?

Having said that, it is close to eugenics....especially if you consider the role that the sex of the baby may have in all this. Ie that babies of certain sexes are more likely to lead to HG than others for individuals.

I am not sure it is closer to eugenics than selecting eggs so that you will not pass on a genetic disorder.

In one case you are choosing for the sake of the health of the offspring in the other for the sake of the health of the mother.

doodle I have not spoken to DH about it as I wanted to get my own feelings clear first. I know he desperately wants more kids...so I didn't want to expose myself to that added pressure until I was sure of my own position.

Interestingly, mu grandfather was a GP in the 1910s-1950s and my mother still has one of his medical reference books. When I was suffering with HG I looked it up, and the book said that the normal course of action was termination. A different time, with different other treatments available.

tiggy yes, that is an important point...as I said before if I got it again I would not ttc again as the chances would be better than 50:50 on it being recurrent.

So really it comes down to having one more go or not. Recurrent aborting is off the table.

If I were you, instead of worrying about hypothetically aborting foetuses which don't yet exist, I'd be perhaps talking with a good friend, or your husband, or finding a counsellor to talk through what happened last time. I think you fixating on the 'but I can have an abortion' solution is not actually helping you deal with the trauma of what you feel now, which is still ongoing distress and upset about the last pregnancy.

There are so many options in this scenario: decide to stick to one child (because pregnancy is not for everyone, and your own sanity is very important), adopt or have other children but not through pregnancy, get counselling and work out some concrete plans of how to cope with another pregnancy (even one with HG), pay for a private consultant who specialises in this area and set up the help you need, or just go ahead and get pregnant and see what happens, it's amazing how people cope with things they don't think they can cope with (you did last time, whatever you say). And, of course, there is the option of abortion.

But I don't think having a plan like the one you are suggesting, especially as it hasn't been discussed with your husband/partner, is a good idea, or even what is likely to happen, not because it is morally wrong (I am not interested in debating this) but because it is a very traumatic pathway for you, as it would take you down the path of fear of losing your sanity again, and I wouldn't go there unprepared except for the nuclear option, go having considered everything and had counselling and with plans in place to deal with HG.

icebineg I haven't read all the thread but here's my experiance

I've had 8 pg, 3 were early mc, I've had hg twice and really bad sickness with the other 3. My worst hg pg was ds3, luckily ds1&2 were older which made it easier.

We had been ttc for 14 months and I mc 2 months before I conceived him. I remember at one point just wishing the pg would go away. I spent most of the first 6 months (he was born at 32 weeks) laying on the sofa, couldn't cook or clean it was like really bad sea sickness.

Some things to think about are
. How much support do you have? I couldn't have gotten through it without dp who was fantastic.
. If you needed to be in hospital could you sort out childcare for dd.
. Look into medication, there is a fantastic support group for hg in the pregnancy topic where you can learn about meds and what worked for some women.
. Emotional impact of being ill or going through a termination. It will feel different to your mc's

I couldn't go through a termination due to hg, however after how ill I was with ds3 I can understand why people do, or why they at least consider it.

My last 3 pg have been in the last 2 years so the hg didn't put me off, however me and dp did have long talks about how we could cope and the impact it would have on our relationship.

Ds4 was born too early at 20 weeks when ds3 was 7 months old, I was sick but nothing like with ds3

I've just given birth to ds5 (last fri) this oh was the sane, really bad sickness but not hg. Ds3 is now 23 months old and we've managed, but I have a great family and fantastic support.

I had HG in both my pregnancies. The second pregnancy was much worse than the first. I considered terminating the second pregnancy because I was so ill and just wanted it to stop. I didn't, and now have two wonderful, healthy sons. I didn't terminate, but knowing that I could gave me the courage to continue. I took it one hour at a time.

I know the horror of HG. I know what it's like to vomit in your sleep. I know what it's like to vomit blood from burst blood vessels in your stomach and throat. I know what it's like to feel the earth rotate beneath you, to smell perfumes from a mile away, to not be able to swallow your own saliva, to be too weak to walk to the bathroom.

Every pregnancy is a gamble. If you want another child, you need to work out how far you are willing to go. It's possible to get put under consultant care from the word go if you have a sympathetic GP. If you don't have a sympathetic GP, get one. You need to know that should you get ill, it will be taken seriously and you will be treated quickly. HG is a cycle, and early intervention makes all the difference.

I desperately wanted another baby. I was advised to put on half a stone so I had weight to lose, and to prepare for the pregnancy by taking a decent multivitamin for six months prior. In the end, there was no third pregnancy. I was told that the likelihood of me holding on to another pregnancy was poor and that I'd be putting my own health at risk.

My advice to you is to get all the information you can, from a knowledgable doctor. They do exist. Put in place an action plan should you need to be hospitalised. And then, when you've done all that, really think about how you'll cope if it hits again.

I don't blame you for having termination in the back of your mind, and I wouldn't judge you if you just couldn't face another HG pregnancy. In my opinion, though, if you terminate for HG you need to face up to the fact that having more children might not happen for you. There are no guarantees, but my understanding is that if you have more than one HG pregnancy the likelihood of subsequent pregnancies going the same way gets higher and higher.

'I am not sure it is closer to eugenics than selecting eggs so that you will not pass on a genetic disorder.

In one case you are choosing for the sake of the health of the offspring in the other for the sake of the health of the mother. '

see if someone was getting pregnant serially and aborting each embryo/foetus which carried the gene - I'd find that pretty uncomfortable too.

Choosing your eggs on the basis of health concerns, for the parents or the child, is totally different and far more acceptable imo.

'So really it comes down to having one more go or not. Recurrent aborting is off the table. '

Well that's a relief. The fact you were considering it though makes me very concerned.

I think there's a big difference between thinking that if you had not had a mc you would have had a different child and not gave minded at all (because you never would have conceived the child you do have - totally get that, am in same boat) and what you're suggesting op. big difference.

Op an see you are terrifed and want some kind of guarantee or assurance that you will not have to go through what you went through, again.

That's currently not possible. No one can tell you that.

Because no one knows till you're pregnant and it's already happening. I too wish I could be given the safety of an assured HG free pregnancy - I'd have 6 more babies. But I cant' be given that assurance. So it's a case of no, I cannot do it again - and last time it was a case of 'grit your teeth and here we go' and it was horrendous, for me and for my poor children who had to learn to fend for themselves pretty much.

You can't have a guarantee. You have to be prepared that this pregnancy will give you as much trouble as the last - it may not, it may well. No one knows.