to ask: What's the point in school uniforms?

[allrightluv]

They serve no purpose and promote conformity. Differences in income are expressed in other ways - shoes, bags, mobiles, in fact, even more so. Kids are judged by which school they go to (state/private). Thanks to the uniform you can tell by a mile off. Kids wear brands anyway - after school, at the weekends and in the holidays, so it's not any cheaper to wear a uniform to school. Consumerism is the most pronounced in the UK of all European countries.

Other countries like Sweden have no uniforms at school and few uniforms in work life, too, and rate much higher in terms of kids' happiness etc.

I'm not saying there's a causal link, but uniforms are not helping...

"having a role eye moment with the "like to see the individuality shine through" "

I agree. besides the children I've come across want to be the same or have the same as their friends, same hair, same shoes, toys, food whatever and don't want to stick out like a sore thumb!

I'm all up for individuality and shining through, but that can be achieved academically or creatively or in sport or music or just by having a lovely personality or being a good friend etc. - so many other ways rather than just clothes!

in fact Albert Einstein famously had identical shirts and trousers, he didn't want to waste precious time worrying about what he wears or coordinating his wardrobe - it was far more important for him to spend that time on excercising his genius brain!

so I say less focus on clothes, more focus on homework!

I'm with SGB. Fine to have a basic dress code to make life easier, but down with 'pissy rules'!

Yeah I think uniforms are fine tho as lots of people pointed out kids always find a way of expressing the different social groupings and hierarchy through subtle little things to let you know who's cool and who's not. In my day (lol) me and my rocker friends used to wrip the cuffs our school jumps and patch them up with safety pins to look more punk and wear loads of necklaces just visible above our school shirts. The cool girls rolled their skirts up to be really short. We let our hems down to make ours really long. They wore the highest heeled shoes they could get away with. We wore flat as flat DMs. Ha! Nothing changes!

But I work in a centre with kids 14-17 who don't go to school and so they all wear their normal clothes everyday. But it's tough going because no one has enough clothes to wear a new outfit everyday and the pressure to have a certain brand of clothing or more than 4 pairs of jeans and stuff is scary, esp as these kids are not usually from very well off backgrounds. So in some ways I do think a uniform avoids a lot of that sort of stuff..

I think they should be cheap and hard wearing and are a good thing. However I can't stand seeing tiny tots in ties, blazers-and stupidest of all hats!

Well based on my own experiences I'm pro-uniform.We weren't impoverished - my mum was just too tight spend money on clothes. I started juniors (which was non-uniform) and wearing a minging mustard-coloured handknitted jumper, a hand-me-down from a male cousin. Can also remember my teacher praising this garment, saying how lovely the stitching was - my first memory of being patronised.

Agree that even with uniform you can see kids with designer bags etc, but I still think uniform is a leveller. Thank god my secondary school had a uniform!

linerunner, the clip on ties could be because of trouble with kids trying to yank ties tight on each other

Really??!! The amount of " oh my child can't be an individual" and "they (uniforms) are a conformist regime" is so silly.

Schools in their nature are conformist, children in (the main) want to be conformist. It is human nature. Some but not many want to be outside the "box".

Uniform in primary at least provides an even playing field when it comes to economic situations.

Though have to admit by secondary, bags and shoes become the "socio economic" factor. Not looking forward to that at all as a family on disability benefits :(

Ah, TrinityRhino, by Day 2 most of the clip-on ties had been snatched off and hurled over the fence into the inner marsh by the Year 11s. Oh how we laughed.

'Schools in their nature are conformist'

They really don't have to be.

I'm not a fan of uniforms, mainly because comformism is what they're all about and I don't want a school that's trying to make my kids conform to a narrow social agenda (and it's pretty damn narrow).

Education should be about expanding our minds and our sense of self, exploring the possibilities of the human mind and trying to make the most of what it is to be human. Not playing at working in an office from the age of 5.

Our school has a uniform (school jumper) but no enforcement policy so the children are allowed to wear other things if they want to. I haven't seen any children not in school uniform though as everyone chooses to wear the jumper and most choose black/grey trousers/skirt though there are some who wear jeans or chinos with the jumper instead. I like it, the school has an identity but is relaxed so that if a child has ripped their trousers and has no other clean they don't have to worry about getting into trouble. There are no restrictions on footwear or pe kit as long as they are sensible so no heels I suppose but colours are ok. It's good for my (aspergers) ds who will not wear normal school trousers as they are 'scratchy' so favours fleece lined joggers. He has loads of different pairs and as he often gets muddy at break AND lunch he often changes his clothes several times a day and usually ends up in his colourful joggers by the end of the week :o The school has logo'd jackets, fleeces, gym bags, school bags, polo shirts, t-shirts and hats for those who fancy it, but there are only a handful of kids who have maybe one of those things. I think this is the way to go, have a uniform for those who wish to use it, but don't force parents to spend daft amounts on it by enforcing its use. The likelihood is that most parents would choose to buy the jumpers but not the rest (like here).

Isn't OUR job as parents to instill individualism and confidence in our children. Children together (society as a whole actually) will always find the unusual...well unusual to be honest.If you as a parent do not want your child to conform to what you perceive as a narrow social agenda then there are several options open to you. Home education, independent schools just to name a couple. We all make choices for our children and as a society there will always be a mainstream.

Designer gear is far less of an attraction if nobody wears a uniform.

When it is only possible to wear mufti on weekends/holidays it becomes infinitely more special and out of uniform days become more of a chance to show off with fancy duds simply because they are such rare events. When children wear their 'own' clothes all day every day all clothes are is clothes. It is amazing how fast clothes fade into the background when children are allowed to wear their own every day. Saw it happen with my own eyes as my older DCs went through high school in the US.

(So what I am saying is probably the polar opposite of CherryCarpet's comments)

I have experience both and my opinion is that either a uniform should be both strict and practical according to the demands placed upon it or there should be no uniform.

My DCs current uniform of plastic blazer and plastic school trousers is neither strict nor practical. The blazer is a ridiculous garment - nobody outside of a school or a club wears one. It manages to be the wrong garment no matter the weather.

A school uniform should follow the stricture that uniform isnt uniform unless it is uniform. If a school wants to have a uniform then it should be selected on the basis of the activities being performed - lots of walking, science lessons, art lessons, technology lessons.

Business workwear seems like a good idea to me - cargo trousers, polo shirt, sweatshirt and work boots. An alternative would be to model on the cadet uniform. It's practical and lasts forever.

I havent yet seen a school uniform worth the money which has to be spent on it.

I am entirely qualified to judge this once and for all ...

I had seven years of children at a primary with uniform; it was fine though personally loathed the trousers. It was a battle most mornings to get them dressed. In hindsight it's probably because they disliked the trousers as much as I did and the general compulsion.

We moved house and thus school to one with no uniform. It made me twitchy. I could rehearse every pro uniform argument in the book. Nearly 2 years down the line (at primary level) I am an absolute convert. Love the no uniform policy. Clothes have not been an issue, getting dressed in the morning isn't an issue any more and it's lovely to see children being children and feeling good about being who they are and free to be expressive.

Ds1 is now at secondary and in uniform and that seems entirely appropriate at that age and stage.

I love school uniform when dd was in playgroup the amount of clothes she got through was shocking.

Just for the anti-skirt brigade - my children's school doesn't allow trousers for girls and it really doesn't stop them tree climbing, running etc. It also doesn't mean that they are cold - DD wears tights all winter whilst DS refuses trousers and wears shorts (with short socks) whatever the weather.

Interesting, petit. Do you think the kids at primary are too young to be into 'who's got the most expensive clothes'?

ds has a sensible, straightforward uniform that I'm OK about - saves worrying about what to wear in the mornings - but I have discovered one downside... he doesn't have a school tie. Then they needed one for a World War Two day where they had to go dressed as 1940s schoolboys. Got one of dh's ties, only to discovered I have completely forgotten how to tie them, so couldn't show ds! I haven't worn a tie since primary, several decades ago, and just cannot recall how to do it at all.

He's also got to wear a tie to a concert with the school choir soon - it's massed choirs so ties are compulsory, but his school is going to look mighty odd with an assortment of ties borrowed from Dads.

Sorry, meant hanah, not petit, although petit's point was interesting too.

edam - my dds have been right the way through a non uniform school and dd3 is still there. I think reception obviously don't care but like the colours Yr 5/6 are certainly old enough but because they've always worn their own stuff and they see each other's clothes ALL the time and not just on show off days non uniform days, it's just less interesting to them.

Just went off and asked dd1 who is now 15 about it and she's just said pretty much word for word what i just typed!

Girls not allowed to wear trousers how on earth to they get away with that??!

I am not a fan of uniforms and agree with all the points in the op, however the only argument I can think of for uniforms is that some parents idea of 'sensible' clothes would probably be ridiculous. Uniforms should at least be comfortable and practical.

My dd hates wearing dresses and skirts though so think she would have a nightmare at your kids school petit...

I like uniform.

I'm grateful no one has to do any serious thinking in the morning.

I'm grateful there are never any disagreements in the mornings over what to wear.

I'm grateful I don't have to second guess the day before what someone may want/need to wear. I know what bits of kit need to be washed, dried,ironed.

I'm grateful that items that still fit and/or are in one piece can be worn for years. No boredom factor. No 'this is no longer acceptable' factor.

I'm grateful that uniform can be passed around without anyone being able to spot it.

I'm grateful that I never have to even consider what might or might not be appropriate.

I'm grateful that no one else can come to school in anyhting inappropriate. Not all parents are able to make sensible decisions it seems!

I also think that uniform actually fosters creativity. Working out how one can customise a uniform is an art form .

'Isn't OUR job as parents to instill individualism and confidence in our children'

That has nothing to do with what I said. Individualism and confidence are not antonyms of conformity.

I think conformity is the curse of good education. It ties people into a mindset of parroting knowledge and accepting rather than questioning what is put before them. That is not good education, it's training. I don't think uniform is the biggest signal of this mindset, but I see the push for uniforms going along with a mindset in state schooling that is more about box ticking and turning out product for the work force than about producing bright minds.

Not only do I not want my kids to be pushed into this narrow social agenda, I don't really want my taxes paying for other kids to be pushed into it. But I'd be happy with a bit more diversity in the schooling available.

This "don't like the state schools - HE or go private" tack when people don't like what a state school does is a bit of a pathetic lack of argument and very anti-democratic.

Definitely, definitely pro-uniform

what wordfactory said + fosters feeling of team spirit

dd's uniform is expensive but v. good quality, washes like a dream and saves me a fortune on mufti clothes

plus leaves dc free to focus on more important things than clothes

None of my teen DCs ever did any serious thinking about clothes in the morning except for the first week of freshman year.
I had a policy of never questioning what anyone wore --> no disagreements.
I did a wash every day because there were 6 of us and if I didn't clothes tended to pile up.
I handed down every single stitch of clothing that I could to younger members. DS, the only boy, wore the same clothes for years with no boredom apparent big basketball style shorts until he grew out of them, big t-shirts until he grew out of them or they fell apart, sweatpants or jeans and hoodies. The only time he ever went through clothes fast was when he had his big teen growth spurt and tbh it was shoes that he went through fastest at that stage. The DDs wore the same sort of clothes jeans, shorts, t-shirts, sweaters, sweatshirts again no fuss or boredom. They got new clothes when they grew out of the old ones. DD1's jeans usually bypassed DD2 who has a different build, but were fine for DD3. Younger members accepted handmedowns without question and nobody ever commented or spotted it. And nobody was on the lookout for handmedowns either. The DCs were dressed as small children in clothes handed around amongst neighbours and all the neighbour children were too everyone had seen everything before, pretty much.
The DCs knew what the school dress code was and were responsible for keeping to it (no midriff baring, no offensive slogans on clothes, no clothes ripped in strategic spots, no gang symbols, no headgear except religious allowed in school, closed toe footwear required for all lab classes)
I used to pass a private, uniform wearing school where the girls took great pains to hoik up their skirts to the nth degree, apparently took pride in the ability of their (blue and blotchy) legs to withstand the harsh winter conditions of the American upper midwest and refused to wear tights, and every single girl wore the same shoes -- at first it was ballet flats for several years and then that changed to deck shoes. And they all wore their hair long and straight. There's only so much you can do to customise a plaid skirt, white blouse and v neck sweater. That particular school had a different skirt and blouse colour for each of the four years.