To think change in childcare ratios will lower childcare standards

[moogy1a]

Proposed change in ratios for nurseries and childminders means that some nurseries will almost double the number of children with the same number of staff.
How can this possibly improve childcare standards? Common sense says more children, less attention per child no matter how qualified the staff.
The proposal also seems to think this will lower costs. it won't. Costs per child will be the same but nursery profits will increase.
For CM's the ratios are also to increase. The whole point of CM's is that you can get out and about to parks / playgroups etc. How will that happen with 4 one year ols to transport?

Completely agree breatheslowly

The GCSE English and Maths thing is just a sop to make people think that standards will improve. All that will improve is some nurseries' balance sheets.

The GCSE thing is an odd requirement too, surely better qualifications in childcare would at least make sense?!

porto - because you are limiting the pool of potential staff and unless you increase their wages dramatically no decent teacher is going to work for low pay. Plus if they are looking after 4-5 kids of different ages i can't see how they could educate them beyond basic things like counting anyway.

She was degree educated - paid a teacher's salary and had a class of 25 2.5 - 3.5 yo. That is how they do it in Belgium. It is FREE.

I am in France and higher ratios do not work well. Childminders who take lots of children manage by keeping the TV on the whole time, giving the children free access to brioche, and being very strict about napping. Parents just don't seem to expect adults to give the same level of input that we have demanded in the UK.

From 2-3, potty trained children can start the ecole maternelle. My son is there at the moment having his afternoon nap with a class of over twenty others (well, actually, as usual he will be keeping them all awake by singing English songs). They have one teacher and one assistant. He really struggled when he started aged 2 - and I struggled too as the teachers regularly told the parents off because their children would not sit still/do what they were told etc. The expectations in terms of obedience/discipline are set very differently to the UK. As an English parent I don't like it, but we have to live with it so that my son learns French and is ready for more formal schooling at the same time as the rest of his peer group. I really don't see it as a model for elsewhere, and it certainly doesn't fit with typical English attitudes to childhood and child-rearing.

They wont put in a teacher though.A lot of settings in deprived area already had a qualified teacher, this government have already cut that.They will just make the minimum wagers do the teachers work.

MPs' kids have nannies, with 1:1 or 1:2 ratios and then go on to be privately educated, with small class sizes. Of course 1:6 is fine for the proles' toddlers...

And you would be amazed by what they achieve. Dd did topics - so eg "wheat". They went to the farm to see it grow, they saw it being ground into flour. They went to the supermarket bakery to see bread being made. They baked their own stuff. They drew pictures, did crafts, brought baked goods in from home. Ditto for "weather", "trees" etc etc. With plenty of time for free play too. The teachers are qualified to TEACH children in an age appropriate way.

chocolatebourbon - agree with you about "attitudes". In order for 2 adults to manage 25 2-3 year olds there does need to be a high degree of obedience and compliance from the children. I think of my 2.5 year old's class of 12 2-3 year olds, with 3 members of staff and there is a loose routine with children having a large degree of choice. 4 of them can be playing outside on bikes, while another adult reads stories with a child who is struggling to settle, while another adult is doing foot painting with some children while another couple play independently. How would that work with 25? If one adult is taking someone to the toilet, how is the other adult keeping 24 of them interested and engaged in something?

All these references to the rest of Europe by Truss, she doesn't mention how heavily subsidised the child care is these countries. Are they going to borrow these 'best practices' to?

All these references to the rest of Europe by Truss, she doesn't mention how heavily subsidised the child care is these countries. Are they going to borrow these 'best practices' to?

Has she not noticed that "the rest of Europe" is a pretty big place? Is childcare in Denmark and in Greece identical

Exactly goldenbear so they want degree qualified, c grade at gcse level staff who must do planning,learning journeys etc.Much longer hours with the children than qualified teachers.

They will also be dealing with a large amount of children with most nurseries only paying the bare minimum as it is, with no pay rises and most staff get less than you would get working at Tescos.

Most nurseries have already lost their qualified teachers and the other initiatives put in place under Labour.

I find the report full of red herrings and ill-argued conclusions.

Ms Truss finds that childminders are on average less favourably rated by OFSTED than nurseries. It might be that the childminders rated poorly actually perform poorly - or it might be that they are better at delivering the sort of service valued by parents than that valued by OFSTED. Perhaps OFSTED's criteria are skewed in favour of nurseries? Perhaps they should be overhauled instead?

She furthermore finds that childminders in areas of deprivation tend to score less highly with OFSTED than those in more affluent areas, and leaps to the conclusion that childminders need to be better educated in order to give a better start in life to children from disadvantaged backgrounds. There is no evidence that I can see of a correlation between OFSTED rating and educational attainment (or indeed geographical area and educational attainment). Would it be a huge stretch to imagine that childminders in these areas of deprivation might be less well rewarded and have less cash for resources (or have poorer access to community resources) with which to impress the inspectors?

FWIW I am not personally threatened by anything in the report. My own children are beyond needing childcare, and though I work as a childminder I do have academic and vocational qualifications enough to meet any foreseeable raising of the bar, and no pressing need to increase my numbers. If there is downward pressure on fees, for example if local nurseries hugely increase capacity and lower prices, I will simply give up childminding (even though graded outstanding) as contrary to popular belief the financial rewards as they stand are not great in relation to the effort and commitment required.

I believe that's me that you've misunderstood there, HannahsSister40

My point is that you choose to stay at home, lucky you. I could choose to stay at home but I instead choose to work, lucky me.

Many and probably most women don't have a choice. They may want to work but the cost of childcare takes that choice away. They have to stay at home.

We as a society are failing to support the rights and freedoms of women to work if they wish to do so . We are also depriving ourselves of the resource of the many educated women we forcibly remove from the workforce at a time when our economy needs them.

SamSmalaidh, it doesn't really work. I was told by the teacher that my child was "difficult" because "he only comes and joins in with group activities if it's something he is interested in". He is not naturally obedient and teaching him to be obedient wasn't top of my list when I started out as a parent...but if I had been starting out in France and known what was coming, I would have put it as number one priority. Your description of your 2.5 year old's class sounds absolutely lovely.

Having just read some of the report it says they are going to start training the first early years teachers in septrmber 2013.Anyone know anymore about this?

The reason the quality is lower in deprived areas is simply because staff come from the local area so if literacy is already low the staffing standards will be lower.I've seen this time and again when doing supply teaching.

High qualified nursery assistants are not going to travel from their nice sheltered areas to challenging areas a)because of travel costs(which the Gov isn't exactly helping with) and b) because it is easier working with children in less challenging areas.

People will also always want to work in their local area and childcare will never pay enough to lure workers onto a lengthy expensive commute.That aside many will have their own dc to collect before and after anyway.

I disagree in that I think that there is no more scope for people to be put out of work and even lower wages paid

Personally I wouldn't fancy four under ones - but that's why I'm not a CM!

Too true choc bourban

culturally every country in eu is different.

every eu country different have no idea what spain, italy, germany and greece do.

I have heard from my french freinds that france is

much more academic
formal
structured

I wouldent knock it if was free:)

I supsect their buildings are very different from whats on offer in uk.

I have 3year old whos september birthday so just missed school this year when shes more than ready.
So I have extra year of paying childcare for her.

when went back to work net monthly salary was 1200
nursery 850 with child one

by no 2 I was sahm

dds could only do 1 day as thats all could afford but good for her development

want to start dd3 now dd2 funding free 15hours kicked in.

pay nursery 160 a month and last term preschool as started in september around 500 for sep-december.

i have never had tax credits to help with childcare,

so always been self funded.

I work on preschool committee and went parents evening nursery they keep changing framework, paperwork amount of paperork and observations for each child is loads.

They cant decide if its education or childcare.

lost track of comments on primary threds that schools are not childcare as shouldent be treated at such.

But if its school/nursery/preschool needs are same child in someone elses care allowing parent to work.

if my nursery changes ration willnot put no 3 there.

wonder if its compulsary or up to ofsted or provider?

That isn't to say there aren't literate people in deprived areas of course there are but illiteracy is more prevalent in these areas and childcare is the type of job many can access.I do think a certain amount if literacy is needed when teaching phonics,reading stories,reading and writing plans etc but it is only part of being a good childcare practitioner.

god help anyone who tried to look after 25 2.5 year olds like my oldest 2 boys. they would have deserved all the money they got portafino. i'm presuming they would have had to sit still for some of that time. they could forget about teaching them maths or english - all their effort would have gone into keeping them still.

I know several degree educated parents who struggle far more with babies/toddlers than parents less well educated.Slapping GCSE Eng and Maths into the equation is just paying lip service imvho.

So not one person thinks IABU! is this a first?!
Could we start formulating our responses / arguments for the webchat with Truss. What are the most salient, important points we want to put across?
BTW, I'm a CM and shudder to think what the standards of care would be like with increased ratios.

Polkadot - though with higher wages, nurseries in deprived areas can recruit the best staff. That is one of the big success of Sure Start/children's centre nurseries - staff are paid a decent wage and are well qualified and actually motivated and interested in working with more challenging children, because the work is more varied and interesting.

Portofino - how do teachers cope with this 2:25 ratio if some of those toddlers have additional needs? I can see it working if all children do activities together and are fairly obedient, but what if one child is autistic and another communicates only with signs (or even if one child just needs to be cuddled and carried a lot) - do they have extra support staff?