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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think change in childcare ratios will lower childcare standards

525 replies

moogy1a · 29/01/2013 08:17

Proposed change in ratios for nurseries and childminders means that some nurseries will almost double the number of children with the same number of staff.
How can this possibly improve childcare standards? Common sense says more children, less attention per child no matter how qualified the staff.
The proposal also seems to think this will lower costs. it won't. Costs per child will be the same but nursery profits will increase.
For CM's the ratios are also to increase. The whole point of CM's is that you can get out and about to parks / playgroups etc. How will that happen with 4 one year ols to transport?

OP posts:
StripeyBear · 29/01/2013 13:31

I'm a bit confused - by highly educated workers - do they actually mean someone with a grade C GCSE in English?

I think the national pass rate of GCSE Maths and English is about 60% - I imagine an even higher % have English alone or an equivalent qualification.

I think inarguably better educated carers do provide a more stimulating environment for young children, but this is hardly a high level of education. I would also worry about the generalisation - when employing nannies for my own children, I would look at their general experience and how they interacted with my child - I think these are much better indicators of how competent they will be, than whether they achieved a fairly basic qualification.

KatyTheCleaningLady · 29/01/2013 13:32

Meh.

I already accept lower "standards" of care when I drop my kid off. Surely my child would be better spending one-on-one time with the person who loves him most in the whole world? But, it makes economic sense for me to lower my standards a bit, and so off to nursery he goes.

I don't know if it will lower costs or not. If it increases the supply of available care so that the proportion of demand relative to supply is no longer so high, then it should lower costs. But, if nurseries just reduce staff, then maybe it won't affect the ratio.

However, it seems to me that a nursery could look at it two ways:

  1. We have X kids for an income of £Y, and our labour costs are £Z. If we lay off two staff, our £Z will go down and profits will go up.
  1. We have X kids, etc. etc.... if we take on more kids, our profits will go up.

It's my opinion that child care is mired in too much red tape, already, in this country and it would be better if things were relaxed. As far as I'm concerned, only the basics should matter: Criminal background checks, CPR and hygiene training, building inspected for fire safety, some basic-but-not-too-restrictive child/staff ratios. I don't think there should be too much more to it.

It's a nursery. Not a nuclear power station.

EasilyBored · 29/01/2013 13:32

But my choice to work is not funded? We would be only very slightly worse off if I stayed at home, but the restrictions that would put on my earning potential and career a few years down the line are just not worth the risk.

The situation above, where the family income is £28 and both adults work full time assumes that they need full time care. Given the nature of work these days, there are probably a lot of situations where the parents are juggling care between them and part time childcare?

EasilyBored · 29/01/2013 13:35

I think the point I'm making is that surely it's better to force employers to allow parents and carers to be able to juggle some of their family responsibilities with their working patterns, so that they don't have to use full time childcare at such a high cost, than to just subsidise the childcare?

LimelightsontheChristmastree · 29/01/2013 13:35

Twelve. You can have my dogmatic 2 year old who is fairly insistent that everyone in the room stands on a chair AT ALL TIMES.

meadow2 · 29/01/2013 13:37

Easilybored- You cant do that in most jobs.You have to be there when they say.I know of no one who is working flexibly

stormforce10 · 29/01/2013 13:39

I don't use twitter but I believe Elizabeth Truss posts there as @trussliz if anyone feels like sending her a tweet or 2

RillaBlythe · 29/01/2013 13:40

I want to know if any of the cabinet has ever used a nursery for their childcare.

EasilyBored · 29/01/2013 13:41

Right, That is the point meadow2 Surely it would be better to have more people working flexibly? Rather than just give money for childcare, make companies make real changes to their working policies so that people can manage all their responsibilities?

TiggyD · 29/01/2013 13:42

After reading responses on here, TV, a newspaper and online, I don't think this will be much of an issue. Kids Unlimited have just been on TV saying they won't raise their ratios and everybody seems to think high ratios equals worse nursery. I wouldn't want to be the first nursery to change as it would be an obvious sign of lack of quality and drive customers away.

meadow2 · 29/01/2013 13:44

Well most jobs you cant unless your going to start needing teachers, shop assistants, bin men, shop and cafe managers, nursery staff etc,etc during office hours.Most jobs you cant just go off and catch up later

TalkinPeace2 · 29/01/2013 13:44

THe ratios are being brought into line with Nurseries in France, Belgium, Netherlands and Germany - any posters who live there who can explain how it works there?

stormforce10 · 29/01/2013 13:44

In which case tiggy whaf is the point of the governements efforts. Surely the nursery "industry" must have indicated that want this and will go ahead with the plans Confused

odd

EasilyBored · 29/01/2013 13:44

No, but there is part time working and job shares etc.

meadow2 · 29/01/2013 13:45

Most people cant afford to do that easilybored.

mam29 · 29/01/2013 13:47

Im so enraged at this really am.

I have used 2different nurseries for 2 of my kids.

eldest nursery was lower floor of converted house it as tiny. it had 3rooms, small office, sleep room and one other small room , toiliets and kitchen/utility area.

The lunches were delivered tea made on site.

Had very small hallway nightmare to leave a buggy or a carseat.

you had to walk through the preschool room 3+to get into the baby room then the baby room had one big room divider to seperate younger babies from older as went up to age2.

the sleep room was small

The extra small room as laminated and used hen it rained to do circle time

The garden AKA the prision yard wasenet great either.

she as there fulltime @11months to age 4

From outside looked rough liked it initially but staff turnover was bad.

everyone here has similar prices around £38-40 a day depending on their age.

2nd child nursery no 2

2converted houses opposite each other in same street.

baby house ha large kitchen /diner, ultily with pegs

downstairs room was very young babies.

upstairs was 2rooms 1 messy play, office and 1 large room

.

garden was better 2nd child started at 18months 1day a week.

The transition was hard though when moved over despite trial sessions and visit by new keyworkers for 6months she sobbed every drop off I felt terrible and monopolised staff time.

The preschool unit is 3storys slightly larger but not great garden.
has kitchen and cook meals on site.
large office, dining room and messyplay room toiliet on ground
middle floor 2s room and 2spare rooms ones music and activities others roleplay and toiliets.

Top floor is preschool3+ to school age its small as attic room but not overly bothered as she does spend time in all rooms.

with nurseru 1 dont see how they could shoe horn many extra kids in they just too small.

nursery 2 yes they could but feel care would suffer.

I did veiw a chain nursery was leapfrog now busybees.

That really was very diffrent as purpose built new building.

it had 3seperate garden depending on age group.
each age group had their own room
had fancy sensory room.

The entire top floor was preschool and they had toiliets , huge laiubary with sleep mats , 1 room looked like class room then another room.

Given size of their building bthe big chains could take more
I seriouly doubt staff will get paid more most are min wage or bit above.

I doubt fees will reduce as salaries not their only overhead and as they private they like to make a profit they not charitable organisations to assist parents and co-alition!
I felt when i looked round looked nice but was too big.

Will this apply for preschools/

as dd prechool is too small its only one building.
They taking 2year olds and dd3 2in april but dont consider it for younger just not enough space.

What worries me is childminders overstretching themselves in order to make more money.

I know there are good and bad but many do schools/preschool runs and to take on 6kids instead of 4 all walking by the road and can have more babies think could be disaster waiting to happen and many couldent fit that many kids into their cars.

They really are numptys its not what parents want.

Also huge problem is no one can afford to put them in in first place and waiting for 15hours funding usually term after 3rd birthday.

Disadvantaged kids term after age 2.

so unless people can afford to , numbers down locally here few preschools shut down.

They keep mentioning europe on sky news its totally different.

They not looking at size of premises as most are small coverted houses or portacabins/church halls- i expect different in europe.

you ideally need primary size buildings state childcare heviliy subsided think waht they term kindergarten as ration at 4when they start school si 1 to 30.

We have no sure start nurseries near me.
There are couple nursery classes attached to schools assume they have lower rations.

But for babies and under 3 this move is wrong.
they claim they giving something spending no money and making wild claims like it will be better for them, will bring costs down and better pay for staff. I dont care about gcse c grade that does reassure me what does is

they nice
can cope
they safe-able to deal with emergency/1st aid

specifically trained in childcare ie old style nneb. some nurseries have degree in early years too.

oh well another thig to corner local my about as read he does public surgeries.

Hope they dont scrap childcare vouchers at same time as thats gone quiet.

EasilyBored · 29/01/2013 13:47

So what exactly would you suggest they did Meadow?

TiggyD · 29/01/2013 13:48

Truss named 2 nursery chains who back this. They are cheap and cheerless very much at the lower end of the nursery market.

By the way, I believe the big chains only account for about 5% of nursery places at the moment, so the key is what the independents think of it.

breatheslowly · 29/01/2013 13:49

This will lead to at two tiered system. Nurseries and CM in affluent areas with parents who can afford to will retain the current ratios as a selling point. The 15 free hours available to 3 & 4 year olds will have the rate of funding drop to match the new ratios and this will mean that providers will withdraw from the scheme if they can get parents to play the full rate for the place instead. Those in government funded nurseries/preschools and those in poorer areas where parents are more price sensitive will use the new ratios. This will mean worse provision for the poorest children who need the most help and this inequality will have an impact for the rest of their lives.

On the issue of C grade GCSEs, DD is 2 and is struggling to get her numbers up to 10 in the right order. I don't think that she needs staff with a C grade at GCSE to help her sort this out. She needs someone with time and patience. As she gets towards school age she would benefit from having staff with some understanding of the primary school approach to phonics so that she starts her very early literacy using the right methods, but this is very different to her needs as a baby and now.

meadow2 · 29/01/2013 13:50

I think I know what they will do.Everyone will still get tax credits, and they will just up the ratios.Childcarers will still get paid minimum wage, or thereabouts.

There will be less childcare jobs so staff will just be glad to still be in employment so wont fight it, and will just do a harder job for same very low wage.Then more mums will go to work in the low paid jobs mentioned.

SamSmalaidh · 29/01/2013 13:50

Easily it would be lovely to say that it's only a short term thing when a child is in full time childcare, and you could take the financial blow, but most families getting tax credits (eg, earning under £26k) can't take the short term blow because it would mean not paying rent or buying food.

mam29 · 29/01/2013 13:51

House of commons has their own nursery

www.daynurseries.co.uk/daynursery.cfm/searchazref/65432195378

so mps possibly use.

wish they invest in early years as tahst where they can make real diffrenece.

A disadvanted child is behind when start school, they wont get gcses or go uni in many cases.

Agree employers should be made by stature to be more family freindly.

PolkadotCircus · 29/01/2013 13:52

You can have more flexible hours,lots of companies,places do it already.It wouldn't work for everybody but it would for many,it needs creativity and thinking out of the box.

The fact is the vast maj of parents and children would like a parent looking after them more or even full time.The best carer in the world is a parent yet nothing is being done to enable this,nothing,in fact sahp are in some cases being penalised.

PolkadotCircus · 29/01/2013 13:57

It will definitely lead to a 2 tier system in pretty much the same way health and education is going.

This is exactly why the Tories don't really care as they'll simply carry on using their expensive nannies/over subscribed Kensington nurseries,private health cover and prep schools whilst the rest of us use the shite elsewhere.

Can't believe I considered voting for them once.

stormforce10 · 29/01/2013 13:57

mam29 - its more likely the HofC nursery is used by staff than MPs. The vast majority of MPs have homes and their families living in their constituencies rather than in London so it would be somewhat impractical to transport their small children to nursery every day if they went there. Be interesting to know what the ratio is of staff to MPs children attending it

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