To think change in childcare ratios will lower childcare standards

[moogy1a]

Proposed change in ratios for nurseries and childminders means that some nurseries will almost double the number of children with the same number of staff.
How can this possibly improve childcare standards? Common sense says more children, less attention per child no matter how qualified the staff.
The proposal also seems to think this will lower costs. it won't. Costs per child will be the same but nursery profits will increase.
For CM's the ratios are also to increase. The whole point of CM's is that you can get out and about to parks / playgroups etc. How will that happen with 4 one year ols to transport?

Also many people in childcare handle children how they parent and often you parent how you were parented.Parenting classes are needed widespread across the country imvho and actually I think childcare workers need more support in the job ie more workers in settings modelling,continuing to train,observing workers,enabling workers to get more qualifications etc.So really staff numbers needs to go up not down.But obviously that would cost more so who cares.

I guess Sam but this won't help that.

I'm not bothered if whoever looks after my child has a science GCSE at C grade, what I'm bothered about is can they look after my child!

I don't see how it can improve care. It's like asking a nurse to look after five patients instead of three, you can't give as much attention to each patient as you would have. But just because they might have a degree instead of a diploma, doesn't mean the care is better!

It's all a money saving exercise. My baby starts nursery next week and it doesn't give me confidence.

Portofino
"Re. the Belgian maternelle - yes they do need to be potty trained. The teacher - is just that - a degree educated profession in early years education. She/he would be on teacher salary. It is SCHOOL - not childcare per se.

There are other helpers who supervise lunchtime and naptime etc. It is fulltime - like school. 8.30 - til 3."

You're not allowed to discriminate against children who are not potty trained as it would include many SEN children.

There is a big difference between working 8.30-3 and 8-5 which is what daycare staff work over here.

If the teacher has lunch help and nap time help that would mean they have extra staff from about 11.30-2.30.

Not everybody wants their children to go to school aged 2 and a half.

meadows - something seriously wrong with childcare in this country if you imagine that 20K salaries in childcare are an impossible dream and state that a nursery manager ffs is on 14K! There are few jobs more responsible or important than looking after our young children - child carers/nursery workers ought to be paid at least the national average salary (26k on average) and ought to be well-qualified also - it should not be the job done by those who can't do anything else, paid at less than a factory worker or cleaner!!

Sad that someone who works in the industry can't see this.

Good point about formulating points to put to Liz Truss moogy1a . The questions that I would like to put to her would be along the lines of:

It's welcome that the government has turned its attention the question of childcare costs. What measures will be introduced with the decreased ratios, to ensure that cost savings are passed on to parents? By what percentage do you estimate costs will be reduced per child? To how many parents will this make a significant enough financial difference tp allow them to choose to return to work?

or

Do you think that the increase in tax revenue from giving parents, in particular women, the choice to work, would pay for the government subsidised childcare necessary to achieve this?

or

My childminder is 50, has raised 3 children and cared for dozens more. In what way would academic qualifications improve the service that she offers?

or

You are clearly well educated. How do you think that you would cope with caring for 4 children under the age of 1 simultaneously? Would you do a sufficiently outstanding job to feel good about yourself at the end of the day?

This worries me A LOT. Surely the safety, care and well-being of the child is being put at risk if this goes ahead?

This measure may give some childcare workers a pay rise.

In some countries parents pay 15% of childcare costs. In the UK if you are self employed (so no employer vouchers) you pay 100% of the costs except for a short period when I think you get some kind of voucher worth £600 when childcare is about £20k - £30k if you pay someone to look after 3 under 3s for you.

What the state needs to ensure is that they somehow win back the female vote (although childcare is as much a male as female issue in most of our non sexist homes) and appearing to help in ways that do not cost much (there is no money, the coffers are utterly bare) is one route.

By the way on ratios I found it much much much easier to care for twins alone and at once than a baby and 1 year old which we had had earlier. Children of the same age can do things at the same time. It is easier to manage them.

In a free market parents can choose care with the ratios they prefer.Free markets always work best.

It's another crazy idea thought up by some bloke/woman with no kids i should imagine.
Can they make half this stuff up, we might aswell have Mr Blobby running the country

Breadandbutter- Pigs wikl fly before childcarers get 26k.I think they deserve it but it wont happen.I have a 2.1 early years degree, forest school leader, all my gcses,nvq 2 and 3 etc.I still only get not much more than the minimum wage and thats for being a newly promoted assistant manager.

My boss doesnt make the money to give to me, and we are full and partially funded due to the area.All of my friends in the same industry are the same.

I can see three reasons why the childcare is less expensive in the continent.

One is the children to staff ratio, another is the government funding and the third one is what the children actually do at school/care.

On the continent there is more children per carer. That is because, for example to access maternelle, the children need to be potty-trained. There is more discipline and less individuality. Staff are better paid but there are less staff so it works out to be cheaper.

The government obviously pays more money abroad. 24 hours per week rather than 12.

And finally, what the children actually do. If you are going to put toddlers to do hand painting, playing with water and sand and going on a monthly excursion to the zoo, yes, you do need 1 adult per 3 children. Most nurseries on the continent would never do that. Most parents would never do them either.

Is this just a sneaky way to bring England into line with the rest of Europe to make their desire to join Europe more appealing?

Its terrible that once again the economy is prioritised above all else. As a qualified Nursery Nurse, the government are doing this to get more mums working and putting into the cash pot because they are always hearing that mums cant afford childcare. Maybe thats true but what the government need to do is subsidise it more. Women are not going to feel confident leaving their children in these arrangements. I know I wouldnt. As for the Maths and English GCSE - what a laugh. By all means lets have better qualified staff but in more relevant things - ie first aid, psychology related stuff etc not Maths and English. This will put plenty of great potential Nursery Nurses off the job. When will this government learn that everyone is not the same and that caring types are not necessarily the most academic.

crazy idea - YANBU

How on earth can someone look effectively after that many children?

Didilala - it depends where on "the continent" though surely? I have known German daycare where groups of 15 children aged 2-5 years had two well qualified carers, and then often a student helper too. Children did all the outdoor and creative play we have here, plus weekly outings to the park. Very different to what has been described in France or Belgium.

This really worries me.

It particularly worries me as it will be happening just as the most deprived 2-year-olds will be getting 15 hours a week term time funding. Many (not all, but many) of these children have greater care needs than your average 2-year-old, the reason for the funding is to try to help the most deprived children start school with the same skills as those with an easier background - of course that is going to take time and attention, settings will be expected to spend time helping the families access additional services. This cannot happen with a 1:6 ratio.

Hostelgirl.

I do not know of a college of FE that allows students onto psychology courses without GCSE's in Maths and English. Any job now requires these or an equivalent.
I have experienced the lack of basic education in child care workers and feel that anybody who sees the insignificance in this standard are doing children a huge disservice.
Yes better training and relevant education would be a benefit along with this basic education.
My friend - a FE Early Years teacher is given illiterate students who are encouraged to do childcare because they aren't academic, this imo needs to change. For instance a better educated person would no doubt be able to talk coherently, use correct English and possess a wider vocabulary.
I don't think you would be too pleased if your dc ended up speaking like some I have experienced. It is obvious children emulate the language of their primary carer.

It will be a disaster. We have been short staffed at nursery before, and it's complete chaos. You can't focus on the individual children or activities with too many under 3, it just turns into damage control and tidying up after them rather than organised things, especially 2 and under.

Sometimes i look after my friends DS (16 months) while also taking care of my DD (21 months). It is insanely difficult! And that's just 2 on 1! Can you imagine having 1 carer for every 6 children?! Sheer chaos! I can't possibly keep an eye on more than 2 at a time- even if i'm changing one nappy the other wants to be cuddled... If i'm preparing lunch they are getting into the dog food or trying to climb out windows etc. i think the £92.50 per day i pay for my daughter warrants a lower ratio of children to carers.

I am actually so horrified by these proposals that I can't type a reasoned response. So I am marketing my place here to come back to it when I calm down.

Of course CC workers should be literate, but the functional skills as part of the training should cover that and be on a pass or fail basis.

No. Child are training is to learn about child are, not teach people to read or add up. If you do not have those basic tools for learning you aren't going to be able to access the information you are supposed to be learning. I wholly support entry requirements for childcare training. It's barely long enough as it is and students without the key skills are missing practical placement time to do it.

This is a recommendation which came from a highly respected professor in the field which the Govt has chosen to expect.

The ratio question on the other hand is bonkers. Countries which do it successfully have predominantly state provision. There is a cultural mismatch between what the UK wants for 2-3 year olds and what other countries want. You can't give what the UK wants on French ratios.

Wow, I've just come home from working full time picking up my two children from childcare and read this news story and I am absolutely furious. There will not be any cost savings passed on to parents and any kind of better provision given to our children. Just a girl with more children to look after than she already has, and my children receiving less attention. Yet again, politics getting in the way of common sense and trying to put some spin on it. Very very angry right now.

I am furious, horrified and saddened by this. The proposals sound dangerous and stupid. Someone up thread wrote it better than I can. THIS:

I want a child carer with compassion, common sense, patience, kindness in abundance and a loving caring and warm personality. If they have an A in GCSE maths I really do not care. I want them to have enough time to give DS the love and security he needs. I want his nappy changed regulary and as required. I want him not to be battling with other babies for affection. I want him to be fed and cuddled. I want his tears wiped if he falls and his face wiped after he eats. I want him to be secure happy and safe

Please sign the petition or email your MP