To think change in childcare ratios will lower childcare standards

[moogy1a]

Proposed change in ratios for nurseries and childminders means that some nurseries will almost double the number of children with the same number of staff.
How can this possibly improve childcare standards? Common sense says more children, less attention per child no matter how qualified the staff.
The proposal also seems to think this will lower costs. it won't. Costs per child will be the same but nursery profits will increase.
For CM's the ratios are also to increase. The whole point of CM's is that you can get out and about to parks / playgroups etc. How will that happen with 4 one year ols to transport?

to the poster who argued that we should perhaps not bother to educate girls if they're going to become sahm's: how utterly insulting. Education is about far more than getting a job. How many people use their degree directly on their line of work? Not many. Education is about self knowledge, knowledge of the wider world, understanding others, empathy, skills for life and not just for the benefit of an employer. My three children benefit daily from my degree level education and I've no doubt it's helped them earn their places in the top sets for every subject.

Sam - Here its about 14k for a manager of a nursery connected to surestart.

piprabbit - that is exactly what MY 2 yo (well 2.5 yo) got - a fully qualified teacher. She has absolutely thrived under a structured, informal, but targeted learning environment. Why is that seen as bad? As opposed to being cared for by a 16 yo on minimum wage?

You don't have to be particularly well off to afford your own childcare without state help? We manage ours on our own, we just don't spend a lot on other things.

Childcares more expensive than most peoples wages, even if you didnt pay any of your bills a lot of people wouldnt have enough.Again you must live in a high wage area.

Why do Belgian maternelles have such a high take up rate? 99% Belgium has a lower % of working women than the UK. These parents are not using it for the main only as free child care - but because education is so highly valued here, I believe.

You don't have to be particularly well off to afford your own childcare without state help? We manage ours on our own, we just don't spend a lot on other things.

Totally agree Easily

NCMA RESPONDS TO GOVERNMENT PROPOSALS SET OUT IN MORE GREAT CHILDCARE

Government plans in More Great Childcare contain some good news for childminding but significant concerns still remain, says NCMA, the professional association for registered childminders and nannies.

Liz Bayram, Joint Chief Executive, says: ?Today?s decision to maintain the current ratio levels for registered childminders will be welcomed by our members and other childminders, who have spent months stating their concerns around proposals to increase the number of children a childminder can care for at one time. We are relieved that, after months of uncertainty, the Department has listened to the professionals doing the job on a daily basis and will maintain the current 1:6 ratio.

?However, increasing the number of under fives a childminder can care for at one time to four and including two babies under 12 months rather than one, can only be justified if systems are put in place to support childminders to make the quality judgements needed to ensure each child in their care still receives a high quality experience. The plan does not seem to link this change to individual childminders holding higher Ofsted gradings, minimum qualifications nor the new Early Years Educator rolel. We know many of our members' do not use their full ratio level at present, because such young children rightly demand high levels of individual attention and care to thrive.?

Significant concerns also remain around the plan to offer childminders the option of registering with an Ofsted-inspected agency. NCMA refutes the claim that the number of active childminders has halved in the last 20 years and that this model will help recruit individuals into the profession.

Bayram continues:?Our fear is this will lead to a two-tiered system for childminding and risk its future sustainability. Whilst now only proposed as an option for childminders to choose, it remains based on the widely discredited Dutch system. We believe agencies will confuse parents, may not lead to Government?s desired quality improvements and could damage the hard-earned professionalism that childminders have achieved in recent years.

?Parents rely on Ofsted inspection of individual childminders to reassure them their child will be safe and receive a quality experience in that individual?s care. The current system places childminding on an equal footing with nursery and pre-school childcare. Introducing this approach risks parental confidence in childminding and so its sustainability. The Ofsted inspection of agencies will need to be rigourous to ensure the need to make a profit is balanced with the need to ensure quality. The idea that agencies will mean parents no longer need to check a childminder themselves or can find someone else with ease to care for their child if their childminder is ill, fails to recognise how engaged parents are in making careful decisions around the childcare they choose for their child. Parents want to ensure not only that it is high quality care but that their child likes the setting, the childminder and the other children s/he cares for. Ultimately the business model for an agency is based on recruiting lots of childminders willing to pay them a fee and, potentially a commission, for placing parents with them. It underestimates how to sustain quality improvement and how to support parents in choosing childcare.?

Portofino - it is absolutely fine to have that if it suited your DD and it suited the teacher.

I'm not sure why it is desirable for every nursery to be operating like a school, for even the youngest children.

porto - because you are limiting the pool of potential staff and unless you increase their wages dramatically no decent teacher is going to work for low pay. Plus if they are looking after 4-5 kids of different ages i can't see how they could educate them beyond basic things like counting anyway.

we have had a range of nannies and childminders and the only really bad one was the most qualified. she was a bitch and the children hated her. the others all brought individual qualities that benefited the children in different ways - none of which were based on qualifications. thats what school is for.

Most people dont spend it on other things, they just havent got it at all.Out of all the dual income families at our nursery all but one are heavily subsidised by ax credits as most people just cant afford it.

Well, I work for a non-profit, so essentially get paid in peanuts and pats on the back. And my wages are still more than my childcare. If I was single, I wouldn't be able to work in my current job and afford childcare, I'll grant you that. But even for a couple we don't earn a massive amount and we still manage OK. However, we only have one child for the primary reason (although there are many many other smaller reasons) because the cost of two children in childcare would be difficult (though not impossible) to manage on our current income and standard of living. I do not live in high wage area, at all, I'd say it was a generally working class/young family area actually.

EasilyBored - my son's nursery is £250 a week, that seems to be a fairly standard cost. Average household income is about £28k I think, so about £540 a week before tax. So childcare for one child eats up almost half of a family's pre-tax income, then at least £150 a week rent, £50 for food, £25 for electric etc it doesn't add up.

Got to hand it to the gov-they have for the first time in history managed to pull off a unanimous aibu!

Anybody in MNHQ interviewed this week needs to congratulate them,I for one am impressed,never in all my lengthy years as a MMer have I witnessed that!!

Oh and yay to the Elizabeth Truss "show us how it's done exercise".

I imagine child care varies a lot from area to area, but average around here is about £150-170 a week for full time childcare.

Great, so she can have storm's 6mo, my non-verbal, faster-than-Usain-Bolt-running, mountain-goat climbing, head-banging, food-throwing mercurial DS.

Just two more required. A super clingy Velcro baby and a toddler who likes sitting down doing lots of intense interactive craft activities should be the most incompatible combination!

You are very lucky then Easily - I hope you can appreciate that in areas of the country where childcare is £4-£5+ an hour it is not so easy to just spend less on other things.

Exactly Sam most people with 2 earners doing combined 65/70 hours make about 25k if lucky and are in supervisory roles, less if not.Then childcare is £34 a day so how can prople afford that without substantial state help?

Speech from Liz Truss this afternoon

www.education.gov.uk/inthenews/speeches/a00220991/trusschildcareratios

Confused about what she means by 'traditional nursery teaching'?

And this:

'I totally reject the idea that children in a nursery can either have an educational day or an enjoyable one.'

I want to know where the CM/nurseries are in this country who aren't providing an educational AND an enjoyable day to their babies and toddlers because i suspect there are very few! Education for a 2 year old is surely learning to put a coat on, or to say please. It annoys me web people differentiate between education and development with this age group. Does she want my two year old to sit at a desk and do bloody worksheets or something ?!

Twelve she needs at least one super clingy teether with runny nappies and painful gums in the mix too methinks.

Glimpers.

I totally agree with you. We couldn't afford childcare so I sah to look after our dc. I certainly wouldn't expect it to be funded. I also don't believe in childcare for us neither so admittedly the choice was simple. We are certainly not rich, in fact we scrimp and scrape to provide for our dc.
I find a lot of hypocrisy from parents regarding funded childcare as many suggest that parents shouldn't receive top up tax credit if they have a sahp, but expect their choice to work to be funded.

But a child is in full time childcare for only a couple of years, relatively speaking it's a short term financial blow.

Ah bless Elizabeth had a nanny,there we gob1 rule for Tories whether it be healthcare,education or childcare and another for the rest of us in the real world who have to actually use these facilities.

My first reaction to this news was not good, however having read these posts I would tend to agree that the older the children get the higher the ratio should be. My nephew went missing from a nursery a good 20 years ago when the ration was 3 to 1 and they still didnt notice he wasnt there (he came back safe and sound). Accidents will happen even in a one to one situation. I liked that they said that the childcare qualification would require better english and maths grades as this was a consideration when we were looking for a child minder.

These proposals,would without doubt ensure my continuing status as SAHP. dreamingof I am an educated woman, I have a Masters degree and have been a SAHP for 5 years. I have friends that are similarly educated and have made similar choices. I say choice, the reality is the cost of housing is so astronomical where I live, as was/is the cost of public transport, that returning to work wasn't worthwhile. Quite apart from that I similarly wanted to raise my baby at least part time but it wouldn't have been doable with the limited flexibility my employer was offering. I agree with whoever said up thread that some thought should given to how parents can be the main care providers for their babies/toddlers/preschoolers. At the moment it is not an option for many and that it is mainly due to the inadequate income if that option is chosen. Of course, there are people who do not want to do this but there should be a choice. This is part of the discussion IMO as it is obviously a valid child care option if you're talking about how you can achieve high quality care for this age group, which Truss appears to be identifying is as the government's motivation for this overhaul- the best quality care for young children- yeah right!

Proper pay for maternity leave and paternity leave would enable the option I outlined above and would significantly alter accepted working practices that usually leave the woman short changed with the returning to work scenario. Affording parents these opportunities is regarded as terrifically expensive to the tax payer and yet the pursual of corporate tax avoiders is not seen as a priority despite the Tax gap (what is owed and what is collected) been reported as being 120 billion a year, 25 bn of that being legal avoidance. Mind you such business is good news for the lawyers who will be able to keep on their nannys and not have to worry about the baby farms the rest of us are expected to believe will be offering this high quality care Truss talks of???