To think change in childcare ratios will lower childcare standards

[moogy1a]

Proposed change in ratios for nurseries and childminders means that some nurseries will almost double the number of children with the same number of staff.
How can this possibly improve childcare standards? Common sense says more children, less attention per child no matter how qualified the staff.
The proposal also seems to think this will lower costs. it won't. Costs per child will be the same but nursery profits will increase.
For CM's the ratios are also to increase. The whole point of CM's is that you can get out and about to parks / playgroups etc. How will that happen with 4 one year ols to transport?

A friend of mine has three children under 3. She also has an abusive, unfaithful husband. She is trapped at home because they cannot afford childcare for even one of their children, let alone all three. The single thing that would make the biggest difference to her life is properly subsidised childcare .

She would be able to get a job, regain some small measure of independence, and perhaps begin to rebuild her self esteem to the point where she wouldn't feel she had to submit to her husband's financial, emotional and sexual abuse.

I feel so lucky that I am able to earn enough that dh and I should be able to pay for childcare for as many children as we choose to have. Or I can choose to stay at home. Or he can. The point is that we have that choice. Many don't.

As I have seen others on MN mention, we really have to look at what kind of society we want. As it is usually mothers who end up staying at home with children, do we as a society recoup our investment in their education? Would it make more sense to just not educate women, if so many are to be excluded from the job market?

The friend I mentioned, for example has a master's degree. Her education was free to her, but cost this country money. If she has to stay at home, and cannot earn and pay tax, what was the logic in paying for that education?

I agree that the changes proposed will only serve to increase the profits of larger childcare providers. If the government really wanted to make any significant difference to parents, they would be announcing subsidised childcare, not this half-arsed headline-grabbing nonsense.

one of which could see a return to a lot more SAHM, I wonder if the govt has considered the impact that would have on the economy?

More jobs for the boys for example which is no doubt a deliberate Tory policy.

There will never be a day when nursery staff get paid 20k.Hardly any get paid 15k either.

I feel a sense of relief that dh and I are done having babies and dd3 is at school. This government has nothing to offer me and my children.

I will be interested to see if the minister actually shows up for the web chat next week. Judging by the reaction so far she'll be in for a pasting.

YANBU
But how much of this is pressure from people who, yet again, have children without considering the expense, and then expect someone else/ the government to bail them out.
Me and DH held out out having DD2, until DD1 was in school full time, as we knew we couldn't afford to have both in full time childcare. We didn't expect anyone to help us out, with something that was our choice.
We use a fantastic CM, who now has DD2 all day, and DD1 before and after school, and she isn't increasing her numbers, and we are happy paying her current prices and wouldn't expect her to drop her costs. She still has to earn a living, just like me and DH do, hence why we go to work.
This would have happened under a Labour government as well as a Tory one, the main issue being that this government has to try and cost cut as much as possible after the utter debacle that the last lot left us in.

Also, this:

Stormforce10

I want a child carer with compassion, common sense, patience, kindness in abundance and a loving caring and warm personality. If they have an A in GCSE maths I really do not care. I want them to have enough time to give DS the love and security he needs. I want his nappy changed regulary and as required. I want him not to be battling with other babies for affection. I want him to be fed and cuddled. I want his tears wiped if he falls and his face wiped after he eats. I want him to be secure happy and safe

I think they are going to do to childcare what they did to nursing. The most important criteria should be that people enjoy working with children and genuinely want to look after them. Looking at a lot of nurseries with their awkward and tiny buildings they should be introducing square footage per child not reducing number of people looking after them. The only reason they want children to learn reading and writing at even an earlier age is because it is much easier to measure and report that than true purposes of pre-school education, such as social awareness, ability to get along with others and enjoy learning something together, developing creativity and physical confidence etc. If I saw a bright nursery with large rooms (with separate space for rest), kitchen, enthusiastic staff that are attentive to children's needs and know how develop children socially, lots of activities, creative, sporty, big outdoor space - that's what would allow me to return to work. That and nurseries that are not open at 9 and close at 3 because I don't know anyone whose job would allow that.

Glimpers you must be pretty well off to be able to afford childcare for even one child.

The contrast between the FREE école maternelle my eldest dd went to in Paris, and the EXPENSIVE British nursery school her sister went to in the UK was appalling even though the UK school was highly rated in the area. The École Maternelle won by miles even though there were 30 in the class. Why? Because the teacher in France was highly trained and extremely well supported by an ASSISTANTE who cared for all the children's social and personal needs. E.G. The bathrooms in the UK nursery were filthy as children were supposed to take themselves whether they were capable or not. In France the 'assistante' was there for all those needs and provided such firm but gentle friendly care to all her charges. My eldest dd is the only one of my 3 who holds her pencil properly, automatically washes her hands etc.
A friend visited us in France with her four-year old who had been taught to read. Disconcerted, I asked my dd's French teacher if I should be worried as my dd was one of the older children in the class and very behind her English peers. She replied 'C'est un enfant qui a énormément besoin de jouer' (= she is a child who has an enormous need to play). She was SO right. She had got the measure of my dd (who by the way is highly intelligent) and I have been grateful for that comment ever since.
I think the ´ECOLE MATERNELLE' is an excellent model to adapt to British needs, though the quality and education of the teachers and assistants employed in them is of paramount importance.
'STRUCTURE' should not be a bad word. If children don't get enough structure at home, they should at least get it as early as possible at nursery school. Good structure should, hopefully, enable the time to offer the care, education and affection that children need.
Oh, and how about adapting the excellent French model of 'ASSISTANTES' - whose job really is to roll up their sleeves and get their hands grubby - by employing at least one assistant in every school whose first language is SPANISH and asking them to sing songs with the children and chat to them in the playground only in that language?

I am a CM and I will be sticking to the current ratios. These original ratios were not plucked out of the air, they were brought in to ensure children are safe and have the necessery attention from the childcarer. Childcarers have only one pair of hands and one pair of eyes each.

My costs have remained the same for three years due to the economic climate but my utilities have increased and if I did increase my ratio I would them have to fork out on a nrw verchile, new pushchair system, more car seats and an extra child still needs feeding and trips to playgroups etc.

I think the only benifit will be to nursery owners who will employ less staff and even if the staff has a wealth of qualifications the owners are not going to increase their pay.

Seriously this government is stupid.

meadow - actually many early years workers do get paid £20k, but they work in state nurseries. What we really need is vastly more state nursery places, with well paid, well qualified, well motivated staff. Of course this government won't provide that.

I also really like the German/Scandinavian system of childminders being employed by the state, and therefore getting proper training, holidays, pay and pensions.

I wouldnt say many do, not even in ones connected to surestart centres.Not many managers even get that,or anything close

Yes let's blame the 'scroungers' because that always helps

What I think will happen is, as lots of others have stated the gap between provision for rich and poor will widen.

What's clear to me from this thread is that parents on the whole value low ratios. It's something they worry about and actively consider when choosing childcare. So low ratios and the inherent 'quality care' which we agree this represents will become a sales pitch. I don't blame the providers for this. Some providers will be able to charge a premium because they keep their numbers down and the people who will be able to afford that will pay for it.

People who can't afford it will send their kids to cheaper providers, probably with higher ratios which parents themselves don't feel offer the same level of quality but is their only option.

Sad. I am actively mourning surestart today.

Here's an idea:

Instead of doing the usual webchat at MNHQ, with Justine and biscuits, can we rustle up 4 toddlers and set up a webcam for us to watch Liz Truss - who presumably has a few O Levels - to look after them over a nursery lunch time? We can all shout out helpful comments along the way

hearing the discussion on the politics show just now, i think this should be broken down into the needs of children under 3 and those that are 3-4.

An under 3 year old doesn't really need a carer education to GCSE c grades but i can see a stronger argument for that to be the case with older children.

if you are looking after the number of children thats being bandied around i'm not convinced a carer is going to have the time to teach children maths and english anyway.

TwelveLeggedWalk Like Krypton Factor but with toddlers!

3-4s in pre school have teeny sessions like 9-11.30.Then a massive break then 1-3.30.Teachers for this get paid 20k starting.

Nursery staff deal with the same children from 8-6. Cook for them,clean for them,potty train/change them and do all planning for £6.19 an hour.

This is a first an "Am I being Unreasonable" thread that's unanimous. Not one poster has supported this change in the law. It's going to be baby farming for those unable to pay for nurseries which differentiate themselves by having better than the legal ratios.

I think it's time that David Cameron was invited on here to be annihilated by a lynch mob of furious mothers for a web chat.

Ms Truss has two children. I wonder if she could borrow a few more for a demonstration........

Twelveleggedwalk - fabulous idea. DS is only 6 months yet so not really toddling but could volunteer him! He needs spoon feeding, nappies changing and breast feeding (suppose i could express some for a cup to help her out!) Oh and he's teething so regulary breaks into red faced screaming with no warning.

Only trouble is can we trust her to look after them all properly. After all she'll have a lot on her hands with 4 of them

Northernlurker oh no! She shouldn't have her own children! Too easy! 6 kids of slightly different ages, different needs, gender, and none of them will have met before.

And nothing to help her except a half empty box of fuzzy felt and an orange crayon.

meadow why assume I am well off? We manage to cover all bills but we are far from flush. The point I was trying to make is that we looked at how much extra childcare would cost before deciding to have DD2, we didn't just go blindly ahead reproducing without a second thought as to how we would pay for it. It made sense for me to go back to work, even taking into account the childcare, and this in turn provides a wage for the CM, which in turn means she can provide for her family.
Ultimately prices won't come down, we all know that, it just means more profit for the bigger nurseries and shorter waiting lists.

OK - just the blog by Ms Truss that MNHQ linked to earlier.
It seems that the aim of these changes is not to improve childcare or make it cheaper, but to introduce a lowering of the school starting age.
Because what a 2yo really, really needs is a graduate teacher instead of a carer .
Have they learned nothing from the whole nursing-by-graduates debacle?

You must be well off if you can pay your own childcare.I dont know anyone that does it without some state help, so you must be on a decent wage.

meadow - where I live they do. £20k for a level 3 qualified practitioner, £24k-ish for team leaders.