To think change in childcare ratios will lower childcare standards

[moogy1a]

Proposed change in ratios for nurseries and childminders means that some nurseries will almost double the number of children with the same number of staff.
How can this possibly improve childcare standards? Common sense says more children, less attention per child no matter how qualified the staff.
The proposal also seems to think this will lower costs. it won't. Costs per child will be the same but nursery profits will increase.
For CM's the ratios are also to increase. The whole point of CM's is that you can get out and about to parks / playgroups etc. How will that happen with 4 one year ols to transport?

TryDrawing, Quote 'You are clearly well educated. How do you think that you would cope with caring for 4 children under the age of 1 simultaneously? Would you do a sufficiently outstanding job to feel good about yourself at the end of the day?'

Brilliant

Um - I don't know how things are now but when I was small I went to nursery from 18 months old, there were only a couple of 'teachers' and we were forced to have a nap after lunch. If we didn't go to sleep we were rolled in a prickly blanket (happened to me a lot). My mum said that I cried every day for years. I can remember being 4 and finding it a very lonely experience. It would have been nice to have a high ratio of helpers. Hope it doesn't go down too far.

Just to make it clear my dad was still studying and mum had to work.

Very interesting discussion on R4 this morning about this; it certainly seems as though the govt have cherry-picked the bits of European child-care that they like the look of and discarded the rest.

I whole-heartedly agree with Fraktion that basic literacy and numeracy is a must for new entrants onto CC college courses. I think that nursery education is woefully undervalued and that treating nursery workers and CMs more like teachers (as is more often the case in Europe) can only be a good thing, but that requires more govt funding and a complete culture change.

I certainly don't wish to play devil's advocate but Truss did say on R4 this morning that only nurseries that show that they have better trained staff and higher standards would be allowed to go for the lower staff: child ratios. I still think it's crap though and I would rather send my baby to a nursery where the ratios were lower and I liked the staff, regardless of their qualifications.

Just re-read that and clearly my understanding of how ratios work needs help

On grounds of safety and education I would simply not consider any setting with higher ratios that the existing ones. It would be impossible for a member of staff to carry four babies in their charge out of a setting in an emergency, or give them the attention a small child needs and deserves. Nature only gives us 1-2 babies at a time because it is not possibly to provide adequate care for more than that. Even people with twins struggle. We would be harming future generations of children by depriving them of yet more of the nurturing they so desperately need to be well rounded adults. I wouldn't try and train 4 puppies at a time, never mind care and educate four very young children!! When will the Conservatives recognise that children need 1:1 care and support parents in providing this for the first two years of life??

It will lead to a two-tier system and greater social inequality, because those on very low incomes will have no choice but to opt for 1:4 childcare ratios, while the more affluent can afford to shop around.

www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/uk-government-department-for-education-leave-our-early-years-ratios-alone#share

Please every one sign the petition

sorry clicky link please please all sign it

message to morethanpotatoprints - i didnt resit my maths and pass it til i was 34 (am 38 now). However when i was 19 i went on a 2 year full time Nursery Nursing course followed by a 3 year degree in Playwork for which i gained a 2:1. I did all that without the Maths and studied lots of child psychology as part of this as well as other things that helped my working with children such as child health and development,first aid, sociology, counselling modules, value of play etc. This is deep stuff - Bowlby, Margaret Meade, Freud, Skinnner etc and much of it specific to young children. I find it insulting to suggest that because someone does not have their Maths or English they are inarticluate.
I would much rather my child had someone to give him a cuddle when he needed one and meet his complex emotional needs rather than someone who knows Pythagoras or Shakespeare. If children are happy and understood the rest will follow. The Maths GCSE that I resat is helpful to me for jobs/CV generally but in no way does it enhance my working with children.

I think it can work. Competent people can definitely deal with multiple children. Everyone I know in other countries with higher ratios rave about the care and never mention the ratios at all. That suggests to me that ratios aren't the issue, but quality of staff.

Not sure if I am more depressed or scared about the proposals. My 17 month old goes to a nursery 1 day a week and the staff already seem too stretched. There is always at least one unhappy looking baby or toddler - or one that has to cry too long to get attention. And this is a very highly rated nursery with lovely staff in an affluent area.

Hostelgirl.

Ditto, so did I. Isn't it lovely to finally get the maths. For me it meant more than my degree because I had struggled so much. I then gained a PgCE and Masters in Social Sciences.
However, I wouldn't want to leave my dc with anybody who was incapable of decent language communication skills. Which imo all the childcare workers I have met without a basic education portray. I wanted my dc to emulate good English and not have to pay for them to be disadvantaged. Obviously the care element is important but don't under estimate the benefit of a basic education

chandellina - or what we want here is different. I think few UK parents would be happy with the regimented approach posters in France/Belgium have mentioned for instance - I certainly wouldn't be looking for that for a 2 year old.

Whatever the quality of the staff, there is a limit to the amount of interact and attention one adult can give. With under 3s, the interaction with adults is all important.

No. For fucks sake. It's actually angers me. Who in their right mind thinks anyone can look after four babies even adequately let alone well?! Stark raving fucking mad. No amount of qualifications gives you four arms.

I am a vastly over qualified CM and my DH has his NVQ3, but no GCSEs. He is just as good at childcare as I am. We will not be increasing our ratios (or reducing our prices).

It's a shit idea. None of the ministers responsible would dream of stashing their kids in a nursery with one nursery worker to four babies - they can all afford nannies.

They need to subsidise childcare properly and make sure the mechanism is robust enough to ensure parents pay less - no possibility of the subsidy going somewhere else in the system. And make sure nursery workers are paid properly - well above minimum wage, definitely at least the Living Wage if not more.

So the government wants the "Nursery Ratios To Be Relaxed" to save parents money!! They are off there heads... a better idea, increase the tax free childcare amount for working parents.... please sign the petition... The government had a fit at the idea of letting working parents have more tax benefit to pay for childcare however they are willing to make nursery nurse's struggle and help them loose their jobs, maybe even in some instances put children at risk.... Please sign if you are a parent or not and pass this on... the petition is at 17,051 but 100,000 signatures is needed to go to the Backbench Business Committee....
epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/31669

Crazy. How exactly does having a lower child/adult ratio improve standards? In all honesty - they don't learn much at this age - what you want is a good carer. Someone who gets round them all with changing and feeding. Really appreciate that the childcare workers these days have qualifications/skills under their belt. They manage well.

But all that will happen with this is that somebody somewhere will cream off more profit. Childcare workers won't be paid more. The quality is fine for the needs. What's to add?

No not necessarily if the ppl are more qualified then it might be that they can organize and look after the children better.

chandellinna, your friends may rave about childcare in Europe but other European countries are having similar debates about childcare provision. In the Netherlands there is increasing criticism of Dutch reforms that have led to high children to staff ratios. In Denmark 59 million of funding has been supplied to increase staff numbers in nurseries to keep RATIOS down. Germany are introducing a childcare allowance for SAHPs that do not use nurseries. It is therefore not the case that this country is full of incompetent child care providers that are behind in 'best practice', it is sensationalist crap that the Tories want to convince us will improve the quality of childcare, help working families at no extra cost for the taxpayer! Something for nothing doesn't exist and in this case it is a very dangerous experiment.

Suky - how? At this age they need changing, feeding and entertaining. How can you change a child quicker because you are more organised? Because that's what they'll have to do. Do less changes and less attention to feeding if they have 6 instead of 4.

No amount of education can change dc's needs.

I've worked in care but not childcare.

YANBU. It is ridiculous and again shows all the government care about is getting all parents into work and not what is best for children.

anyone else concerned that this will lead to

redundancies in childcare?

also losing lower skilled ones who were doing a good job.

Not everyone could be academic but they could be natural caregivers and do good job.

eg my simple cousin who i cant stand-seems to get on well with kids I cant stand her but my kids think shes ok and she makes an effort when shes sees them.

I wouldent say some of nursery workers i have experienced have been very academic.

eldest has a very regional accent think that came from nursery staff.

At last parents evening I discussed how dd2 language had progressed from saying very little to loads in fact wide range vocab very articulate and her keyworker said what does that mean.

Then she went on about how nursery prides itself on teaching foreign languages they speak diffrerent languages at hello in several different languages and one of teh staff who,s polish sings polish songs and read stories apparently dd 2 fave language is latvian,:)
never heard her speak it asked if any bilingual kids there she dide'nt know what bi-lingual meant.

But on plus side her key workers adore her, nurturing, give her cuddles and let her be her. she loves it there .

Yes I have my niggles but they so much more freindly and approachable than some of eldests primary school teachers and I can see shes developed and think nursery played big part.

Im another one who couldent pass gcse have english, all the others, alevels and degree but couldent get my maths.