To think that grammar schools should either be scrapped altogether or available in every county?

[Perriwinkle]

How can it possibly be fair or reasonable to have them only in certain counties?

I know that many people will say "how can a system that supposedly favours the brightest ten percent of children, ever be fair?" but personally, I've actually got no beef with that provided that the opportunity to attend these schools is available to the brightest children in all counties.

How can it be equitable that the brightest children who live in counties which do not have a grammar school system are routinely failed by the comprehensive system whilst those who live in certain counties are not because they are able to attend high performing State-funded grammar schools?

I think if you're anti grammar schools altogether you should probably hide this thread. This is not meant to be a thread about the pros and cons, relative merits, inequalities or shortcomings of either the grammar school system or the comprehensive system. It is a simply a question of wishing to hear any reasonable justification that may be put forward for the continued existence of the grammar school system in its current guise.

How can it be fair to continue restricting the opportunity to enjoy a priveliged grammar school education (akin to that which many people pay handsomely for in the private sector) only to children who live in certain parts of the country?

There is always a small minority, in every country, of dreadful snobs who only want their children to mix with families from a very narrowly defined behavioural/social/economic segment of the population.

Good luck to them!

IME, the biggest snobs are also the parvenus, not very secure that they themselves belong to the social set to which they aspire!

"Where I am the educational experts don't think the children should be setted, I think (and am only speculating) this is because it's deemed to be unfair and not in the interests of the majority. Separate classrooms are no more fair than separate buildings surely?"

That's unlikely to be the reason. There are some education theorists who believe (and there is some evidence to support this) that apart from the very top and bottom couple of %, mixed ability produces better outcomes for all abilities, counter intuitive as that seems. I think- and this is my speculation- that only applies in the classrooms of highly effective teachers.

The point of separate classrooms as opposed to separate buildings is that there is movement between classrooms. There isn't movement between buildings. And separate classrooms allows you to be good at some things and less good at others.

The TES article describes my mediocre girls grammar school to a T. Out of a year of 60 pupils half failed to get 5 O levels. My brother's boy's grammar was the same.

I can't help wondering if two separate issues are being conflated when it comes to social mobility and that the 1950s grammar schools are being given credit which they don't deserve. The enormous upheaval of WW2 brought social classes together; being called up brought opportunities and work to many and ended the appalling unemployment that many had suffered through the 1930s.

Immediately post war we had the implementation of the 1944 education act which brought in secondary education for all. Most local authorities chose to implement this by having a bipartite system of Grammars and Secondary Moderns.

Post war we had full (male) employment for 20 years. But given that the economy was strong and that many people had had their horizons widened in ways which had not been open to their parents' generation, would this social mobility have happened anyway, regardless of the schooling that people had received?

By the same token, is the lack of social mobility now not due to the comprehensive system but to do with a shrinking economy?

I think you will find that most of the DCs in grammar schools (and many in private schools too) have been at primary school with socially and culturally diverse communities of children. That is not really the issue.

I think the concern for most parents is that secondary education can make or break children's academic and career outcomes/trajectories. We all want the education for our children that will help them to reach their goals. So we will all do our utmost to ensure that our children end up at schools that will enable them academically rather than disable them.

Everyone should have those educational choices for their children but unfortunately it is not always the case that they do. Maybe that's less to do with the ideologies of secondary school types than to do with the inherent class system in this country which still underpins everything.

It is quite obvious looking at the league tables for primary and secondary schools that those with affluent, middle-class intakes generally do significantly better than those with less privileged pupils. It's not right but it's the reality in the UK.

@JenaiMorris Well, I am common so I'm not worried about my kids catching it. They are already fatally infected with it from me. Hooray.

One of these days I'm going to set a trap for you, mordion, which will prove once and for all that you're not "proper common"- just Nigel Kennedy common!

Personally I don't think 'common' has anything to do with social class it's attitude. I am working-class and proud of it but I'm certainly not common...

Have a look at the latest rankings for Secondary schools, rankings.ft.com/secondary-schools/rankings

and you will see that it is not always the Grammar Schools or the independents that come out on top in any particular Geographical location. Furthermore, where a Grammar does come top in its locale it is not always by a significant margin.

But education alone is not enough. Recent experiences, at fee paying school, have shown me that pastoral care is equally important and that just because one pays for education this does not always mean that one's child gets the best.

I don't believe Nigel Kennedy grew up in council flats. I don't believe Nigel Kennedy has gypsy heritage. But I might be wrong.

@gazz OK in that sense I'm not common. I'm unique. Which has its good points and its not so good points. You're right of course - while many people use common as a synonym for working class, actually, it's not.

Although thinking about it, I swear a LOT which is pretty common.

Vertex, the FT rankings are biased to make the posh schools look better. A much better measure is the DfES stats.

You can't get much more common than me!
If I'm meant to be protecting my DC from common I'd better get them adopted by seeker .

For me, it makes perfect sense that people (adults and DC alike) are more comfortable with like minded folk. I remember a huge feeling of relief when I finally arrived at university. As if I'd found my long lost tribe. And in work I've always been happiest when everyone has similar goals.

I've recently begun lecturing in my most fave topic and it is a pleasure to be with others who love it as much as me. And want to atlk about it endlessly. And pass on stuff to one another...

Well I do too sometimes, MordionAgenos, but still not common. In fact my brothers (or their families) aren't either, although our Dad is still to be found in a shell-suit most days ! Although, I would argue that the grammar school education has influenced that!

I was joking, mordion- sorry.

I agree, absolutely, that attitudes to education cross class boundaries. But it is just so much easier for the middle class and privileged. If I thought that selective state education benefitted anyone but the aforementioned already privileged, my attitude would be very different. But it doesn't. I don't know if it ever did, but it certainly doesn't now.

"Although thinking about it, I swear a LOT which is pretty common."

Ah. Thinking that means you are proper common- posh people swear like troopers!

Can somebody tell me a County that does not have a Grammar school, as OP suggested. We aren't exactly tripping over them in our County in the North West but we do have them. They are mostly attended by Muslims and Asians, but there are a high level of Muslim and Asian communities in the location.
I do agree there should be more and social mobility should be encouraged this way. For those not attaining entrance though there shouldn't be any stigma attached, after all everybody isn't academic.
I would never have got in, neither would 2 possibly all 3 of our dc. My dh went to Grammar school though, it didn't really provide any other benefits in life though, just because he attended.

No grammars in Bath & NE Somerset, morethan.

Seeker - nobody in the world swears more than me. :( DD1's first word was bollocks. I try to use made up swears these days though. With varying levels of success.

I swear a lot, but I don't think I'm common. I'm not posh, either. Just a bit confused

I think I was probably meant to be very rich though. That would have suited me.

Cornwall. Hampshire.

Yabvu OP

Surely you can move house if you feel that strongly about it rather than expect the system to change around you?

The first word ds wrote on his blackboard was "urse".

We were so proud. His spelling has improved since......

I am in Cheshire West and we don't have grammars here.
After reading all the above posts, I'm glad we don't live in a grammar area and we live 'up north'. We didn't have any of the presssure of 11+ and there is enough pressure later with the GCSEs. My 2 DCs go to the local comp which is very good and they are very happy there. There will be a mixed bag of results as it is not selective at all. 75% A-C incl maths and English - some will be all As and most won't. They also do less academic qualifications for those who need them. The sports, art & music provision are all very good. 200 per year intake split between 8 classes (25 per class), set initially for maths (2 set1s; 2 set 2s; 2set3 & 2set4), and then for sciences, English etc. Plenty of movement around the sets. DD2 gets given extension work for maths even in set 1.
I think the problem is not with having grammar schools but with not having enough good comps.
Also my DCs school is only 2 miles away - whereas people seem to have to travel long distances when SS and Grammars are involved in the mix.