To think that grammar schools should either be scrapped altogether or available in every county?

[Perriwinkle]

How can it possibly be fair or reasonable to have them only in certain counties?

I know that many people will say "how can a system that supposedly favours the brightest ten percent of children, ever be fair?" but personally, I've actually got no beef with that provided that the opportunity to attend these schools is available to the brightest children in all counties.

How can it be equitable that the brightest children who live in counties which do not have a grammar school system are routinely failed by the comprehensive system whilst those who live in certain counties are not because they are able to attend high performing State-funded grammar schools?

I think if you're anti grammar schools altogether you should probably hide this thread. This is not meant to be a thread about the pros and cons, relative merits, inequalities or shortcomings of either the grammar school system or the comprehensive system. It is a simply a question of wishing to hear any reasonable justification that may be put forward for the continued existence of the grammar school system in its current guise.

How can it be fair to continue restricting the opportunity to enjoy a priveliged grammar school education (akin to that which many people pay handsomely for in the private sector) only to children who live in certain parts of the country?

There is a point in that post I think Seeker. The lowest achievers in a typical school do tend to have by far the most resources thrown at them. I'm not saying that they shouldn't have these resources, but with limited budgets and staffing constraints at most state schools, that is the way it is.

I do think it's quite common for average or bright children to miss out on reaching their full potential, because schools simply can't give the same level of input into every student, and the lower achievers are the ones that need the extra input the most.

Oh, I don't know, you know - bright children attract quite a lot of funding and resources and attention - free G&T trips, ISSP events and so on.

Stoke on Trent has one grammar school, and it is doubly selective, as it is also a Catholic school. If you pass the test, you then have to pass the faith requirements. It also has no catchment area.

Nit - what are these free G&T trips? We have to pay (an excessive amount) for them. :(

Incidentally - there was a thread last week about 'Gondaling'. I was hoping you'd turn up at some point but you hadn't by the time I abandoned it. Nobody active in the thread got the references to either the 'real' Gondal or the Marlow's Gondal. Very disappointing so it was.

I don't know what ISSP events are! But I do know that G&T stuff seems to have been scaled right back since Labour left government. That was one of their big things that just isn't being given the same attention any more, at least not in primary schools.

And even then, the only extra help given for G&T students was differentiation that should be given by teachers anyway. It was just to make sure that the teachers kept not and ensured those children were set appropriate work.

There were no extra lessons, no extra funding, no extra resources, all of which lower achievers get.

Which is why I don't really think it's completely unfair that the brightest children have schools which cater to their needs. No one ever suggests getting rid of PRUs, do they?

So Stoke on Trent's grammar is more akin then to the superselectives in London? I say this because my old school in N Staffs has become a very good comprehensive partly because it takes children from across the ability range.

My dc had no extra help at primary, just shoved in a different class.

Because there are no bright children in PRUs are there?

Hang on, a gondaling thread and I missed it?????

I went to a girls grammar school and dh to the boys.

I thank my lucky stars that my 4 have had the outstanding broad based mixed sex comprehensive education they enjoyed.

Much better than ours was and far far more suited to RL.

Oldest 2 successful graduates. Younger doing well.

We have grammars here, worcestershire,but wouldn't bother.

Mordion funnily enough I started an AF thread last week and got NO REPLIES!

re. free trips - we've had a fair few, though obviously I realise it's school/LEA dependant. After one of them, the selected children returned to class sucking lollipops, which I thought was rather tactless....

It wasn't exactly gondaling. But it SO could have been if only the right people had become involved. The OP asked if anyone else in the world had an interior/imaginary/parallel life/lives (I'm paraphrasing a bit). Cue lots of people saying 'I thought I was the only one who did this!' and me saying 'wait a mo, what about the Brontes, what about the Marlows what about Neil Tennant etc etc'. Nobody picked up on the Bronte or Marlow references and the thread went off in a different direction so I drifted away. Not before putting the idea in several people's mind to be a womble when doing tidying up though. I feel I have quite possibly peaked as a MNer.

You are missing the point Seeker. Whether there are bright children in PRUs or not is irrelevant. Children that go there have needs that aren't met in the comprehensive system. Their needs deserve to be met, the needs of low achievers deserve to be met, and the needs of high achievers deserve to be met.

It is simply not possible for one school to do all of these things in the best possible way for every child. They can meet the needs of the majority, but not all.

Nit - well, either link now where there are at least two of us captive to your every whim. Or, alternatively, start another one.

The only free trip my ds's primary offered to G&T students was provided by a very high fee paying and highly selective independent school!

We have never had a single free G&T activity offered to either of the girls. They all cost molto spondoolics. they also require things like a non working parent (to drive child to remote location of G&T activity)

"There were no extra lessons, no extra funding, no extra resources, all of which lower achievers get.

Which is why I don't really think it's completely unfair that the brightest children have schools which cater to their needs. No one ever suggests getting rid of PRUs, do they? "

CloudsAndTrees I think you fail to understand why low achievers do get extra resources. Able children tend to be self starters and don't need the same level of input. Giving children with special education needs the help they need improves the classroom for everyone. It would be bonkers not have pupil referal units as it would be impossible to expel the really badly behaved child. Plenty of people want special schools scrapped.

Actually my son did get a place at free science workshop, so gifted and talented activites still exist. Schools tend to keep these activites quiet so that the parents of children who don't get selected don't get jelous. (My son is not gifted so it came at quite a shock when he got selected)

We know a boy in year 5 who is having a maths tutor paid for by the school once a week as he is level 7 standard in maths at the age of nine. Last year my son's school had a maths club for more able children once a week after school. (Ironically the boy with level 7 in maths did not attend, the club was attended by children who were level 5 in year 5)

The needs of high achievers are met in a good comprehensive- in the top set.

They are the best things in terms of social mobility so I think scrapping them would do a Disservice to those they are helping.

Really Tired - not all able children are self starters. Some are bullied to a greater or lessser extent in primary school. Many able children ned more input than 'the norm'. Being extremely able is a Special Educational Need in itself, but of course, able children often have additional SEN conditions.

Seeker - some of the needs of some high achievers are met in some good comps.

for Seeker and Mordion

"They are the best things in terms of social mobility so I think scrapping them would do a Disservice to those they are helping."
Have you actually read the thread?

THIRTY POUNDS for a primary G&T day. Forget it. Bloody racket.

A good school can meet the needs of all its children.

Our outstanding comp does although the teachers work bloody hard to do this.