To wonder why so many women are in denial about misogyny?

[seeker]

What do they get out of insisting that men are subject to exactly the same level of discrimination and abuse as women? That Mary Beard, for example, would have been treated in the same way if she had been a man?

I just don't get it.

[perfectstorm]

Del, the ultimate insult for a woman is to call her an ugly bitch.

The ultimate insult for a man is to alter his name to the feminine form and call him a pussy.

I love ice hockey, and there's an online meme doing the rounds at the moment amongst women fans. Someone posted in irritation when some of their favourite players were being jeered at - called a pussy, called a pair of sisters, called Claudia when his name is Claude. They were then challenged on the fact that their post didn't actually address the misogyny inherent in those insults - when they're the most common insults in that, or any other mainstream sport. To do the woman credit, she immediately agreed and altered the meme to reflect that, and it's now spread way beyond the ice hockey circles where it began:

Ice hockey misogynist insults - scroll down to the second pictorial correction.


I follow hockey on women's blogs, because the mainstream outlets are casually misogynistic ALL the damn time. It's not an environment I would ever want to spend any time in at all - they casually insult one another using "fucking girl" "What are you, a woman?" "You on your fucking period, man?" and I promise you, any attempts to challenge that would mean you were called an ugly fucking lesbian bitch who should get back to the fucking kitchen, because no man would want to bone you anyway. And for you to say that cvenom and contempt for women has nothing to do with sexual assault and rape - I'm sorry, but you sound truly intellectually impaired by posting that way. You really think Ched Evans was called up by a teammate and invited to rape an unconscious woman, yet that had no correlation whatsoever to a culture that regards women as so lesser, so unworthy, that to imply someone is in any way feminine is the most degrading insult it's possible to make? You don't think there is any link at all? Really? Because if so, I have this bridge you might like to buy. PM me - we can fix a really good price.

[ArielThePiraticalMermaid]

Oh get over the just focussing on appearance! You seem to be incapable of realising that a) her appearance is being abused because she is a WOMAN b) her views, while some people disagreed with them, were not the focus of the abuse, which came about because she was a WOMAN (quite what would have occurred if she had been more conventional looking I don't know. It appears to offend some people even more that she has grey hair and wears no make up. It's like they think she doesn't care enough about their opinion of her to bother trying to look attractive to them) and c) she was threatened with sexual violence for voicing these outspoken views because she is a WOMAN.

Someone more eloquant than me apparently needs to come along and explain it in language that you'll understand. Unless you are being deliberately obtuse in the ever so clever hope of tripping someone up.

I do not generally venture onto the feminist boards because mainly, I don't have the time and the discussions get so very in depth. Silly I know. This particular issue however seems like such a total no brainer. Even so, it is apparently open to denial.

[seeker]

Now I'm confused. I thought this thread was about misogyny, using Mary Beard as an example of how it manifests in society, and the women who deny it.

But it appears to had turned into a "well, men get judged on their appearance too so that's all right" thread.

I don't actually think men are judged on their appearance the way women are anyway- is a men's opinion on anything completely discredited by the media because of his looks? Nobody surely thinks teasing Beckham about his socks is the same as a critical close up of an inch of cellulite on a film star's bottom a week after she's had a baby?

But that's not what this thread is about. It's about the undercurrent of hostility to women, particularly those women who put their heads above the parapet, that runs through our society, and why some women choose not to see it, or if they can't help seeing it, to minimise it.

[Greythorne]

Delboy
The responses to her Beard were completely disproportionate and sickening.

The point is, if the blogosphere had lit up with people saying, "I fucking disagree with Beard, she knows nothing of economics, her arguments are shite, she refuses to accept that immigration is killing this country" etc etc. then that would have been engaging with her on what she was discussing.

But when the blogosphere goes mad with comments like "she looks like a cunt" / "she looks like a lesbian" / "she is too ugly to be raped" etc. that is no longer engaging with her discourse, it is a way of intimidating her, slapping her down, threatening her and refusing to treat her like a human being who deserves respect. If they disagreed with her points, they would have mentioned her arguments in their rant. But they don't. They attack her sexuality, appearance etc. which is why Ariel rightly pointed out that they are attacking her for daring to speak up. They want only pretty women who conform to sexual and appearance norms to have a role in society.

[TroublesomeEx]

The following when said to a boy
"You run like a girl"
"You throw like a girl"
"You catch like a girl"
"You cry like a girl"
would be intended to be an insult.

The following when said to a girl
"You run like a boy"
"You throw like a boy"
"You catch like a boy"
"You take it like a boy"
would be intended as a compliment.

[TroublesomeEx]

In the case of Mary Beard. Her appearance is irrelevant.

Her appearance was the focus of the insults because she is a woman and her looks are deemed to be the most valuable (or not) aspect of her as a woman. Criticising her looks is regarded as the greatest insult she can receive because that's pretty much the only thing women are valued on.

[perfectstorm]

Oh, I forgot: women who follow ice hockey don't appreciate the phenomenal skill of playing a game at 30mph, on ice, when it's such a contact sport that they are meant to crash into one another hard enough to fall over, so they can take control of the puck, and such a delicate sport they can score a goal by tapping it in as they go behind the goal area, and such a team sport that you get a point for an "assist" - passing the puck to the person who scores the actual goal is valued so much it's counted and weighted alongside actual goal scoring itself. It's an extraordinary game to watch, and so fast it's hard at first to work out what the hell is happening. Nothing beats it in adrenaline terms.

But we couldn't be interested in all that. No woman could - no, they're just "puck bunnies" and faking interest because they want to sleep with the players. That's the name commonly used for the female fans. The nice one. The insulting, and actually even more common one? "Puck sluts".

[NonSwearyName]

Sorry if this thread was started because of my "ranty" thread in which I was labelled a misogynist, I'd like to say that I didn't realise what I was writing in the heat of the moment would offend so many of you. I think saying something with a clear mind shows more contempt and truth than something said when feeling angry. So for that reason I believe that some women are ignorant of misogyny and have been conditioned into thinking some words are acceptable to use to describe women.

[perfectstorm]

And nobody says David Starkey should STFU talking about history, or David Cameron shouldn't be in charge of the government, because they're so fucking ugly you'd need to be drunk to screw them, and even then you'd probably throw up afterwards.

When you find that is common parlance as soon as they say something people don't like, then you have a case. As it is, you're just wrong.

[seeker]

"Nonswearyname- no it wasn't! I'll have to "search"!

I started it because I asked on another thread for a link to vile abuse similar to that MB got which was targeted at men, and was told that was a stupid thing to say.

Which puzzled me somewhat.

[slug]

Read this delboys Read it all, not just the first page. Note that there are messages from men but look at the sheer overwhelming weight of stories. This site has been running for less than 6 months.

This is what we mean by the pornified, sexualised culture that lets men feel free to reduce women to a piece of mean wrapped around a vagina.

[Hullygully]

Mary is on R4 right now

[Crunchymunchyhoneycakes]

It's amazingly depressing how much some men (and women) hate women.

I think men deny misogyny because
A) it suits them
Or B) they can't face the horrible truth of it


I think the same is true for women. Cognitive dissonance is a concept I was introduced to on here and it answers this question for me I think.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

As to what to do about the level of misogyny? Raise children (sons in my case) who are not misogynists, who are used to seeing the status quo challenged. Keep speaking out, even when you know you'll probably be attacked for it, quite likely about your looks, irrelevant as they are.

Be the change you want to see in the world and all that.

[Crunchymunchyhoneycakes]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

[AbigailAdams]

And this thread started off so well seeker!

Yes some man somewhere got judged on his looks. It didn't affect his status or his respect, but yes he was judged .

Mary Beard was threatened with sexual violence, her genitalia and looks were mocked, her children were threatened. She is not alone. Any woman who expresses an opinion, controversial or otherwise, in the public domain gets misogyny thrown at them. There will always be comments about their looks (and not the odd one either), their sexuality, ramping up to the experience that Mary had.

And the best people can come up with is David Beckham's socks. It is insulting and trivialising of women's experiences.

It is fantastic that she is (and others) are brave enough to speak about this. Keeping this problem in the public eye. Making people become aware of it.

Here is a great blog about it.

Just because you deny the misogyny is happening, doesn't mean it isn't.

[delboysfileofax]

I understand that she had sexualised comments made to her because she is a woman. I get that I really do.
Ariel- the reason i keep bringing it back to comments about her appearance is because in one of your very first posts on the subject you say Mary was upset because the comments on HER APPEARANCE were made because she was a woman and this would not have happened if male

Myself and other posters showed that it wasnt just women who get judged on their appearance and the responses were along the lines of; well it is worse for women so that doesnt matter.

Then rather than discussing how society shouldnt judge what people say rather than how they look- it was moved on very quickly because its far more important for a self interest group to keep describing how hard they have it above all others.

[ArielThePiraticalMermaid]

Ker-rist.

[seeker]

If I say yes, men are sometimes judged on their appearance too, can we move on?

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

You are right, Delboys, someone did say a thing about David Beckham's socks. David Beckham, who is as well as being a footballer, known for his clothes and his style, and is famous for looking quite nice as well as being good at football, did have his socks commented on.

Mary Beard is known for being a highly educated woman, not a clothes horse. She doesn't sell aftershave with her name on it. She's famous for her intellect and her opinions. And when she gave one of these, people responded by saying she was ugly and should get a hair cut. Also all the stuff about rape and vaginas, with which you seem to think is irrelevant.

[ArielThePiraticalMermaid]

Delboy, I apologise if you found my post misleading or confusing This isn't exactly a thread about society judging only on looks - it's more than that.

If you would like to create thread of your own about how appearances are judged, and leave further discussion out of it, I'm sure you would be very welcome.

[delboysfileofax]

why the obsession with beckham? he was named along with Milliband, Griffin and Starkey. But I suppose your point seems a little stronger if you stick with using Beckham

[ArielThePiraticalMermaid]

Sorry, a thread about women AND men's appearances are judged, I should say.

[FreudiansSlipper]

what is the problem just sometimes focusing on just women why is this so difficult when at times like what we have debated on this thread it is a much much bigger issue for women than it is for men. why can we not talk about the effect it has on women without having to constantly recognise that men suffer too. If we were discussing prostate cancer and the need for awareness would there be a load of posts saying well women suffer ovarian cancer they suffer too no

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

You're right, er.... I'm really sorry I posted that link to David Beckham's socks before

Yes, Milliband, Griffin and Starkey have doubtless had unkind remarks made about their looks. I especially didn't like it when all those people started saying they knew where David Starkey lived, and they bet his pubes were manky, and that he should have a better haircut.

[ArielThePiraticalMermaid]

Sorry, seeker :(