To wonder why so many women are in denial about misogyny?

[seeker]

What do they get out of insisting that men are subject to exactly the same level of discrimination and abuse as women? That Mary Beard, for example, would have been treated in the same way if she had been a man?

I just don't get it.

[ArielThePiraticalMermaid]

It's not just about her appearance, though, delboy. She has been threatened with sexual violence. They want to do her humiliating harm because of an opinion she expressed. Show me where that happened to David Starkey or David Beckham.

[delboysfileofax]

Has sexual violence been threatened against beckham etc- nope not from what I have seen but again that is moving the goal posts. the earlier thread was pretty much Mary Beard was judged on her appearance purely because she is a woman. Regardless of the nature of the insults that was the idea I was interested in discussing.

Now it appears the debate has moved on. Yep the threats of sexual violence towards these women was/is completely unacceptable. In my opinion a threat to rape/sexually assault someone should be a criminal offence.

[ArielThePiraticalMermaid]

But they are part and parcel. Can you honestly not see that?

Ok, I admit it. I have not to my knowledge anyway, been abused on Twitter. I have not, to my knowledge, had my career held back or called into question because of my gender. I have not been threatened with insertion of a penis into my mouth to shut me up when I am outspoken. I did have some a disparaging remark made to me once when I was discussing rugby on a sports forum, but others stuck up for me - granted it was a BBC forum.

But that doesnt mean I can't believe it doesn't happen to other people. Thankfully I have some empathy.

[delboysfileofax]

But what is part and parcel?

Is it only women who can be abused on twitter then? Is it only women who's career is held back because of their gender? Are men not told that someone would shut them up (granted usually not with a penis) physically when their opinions differ?

[delboysfileofax]

Just to add- i do believe it happens to other people, its there for all to see but rather than Mary Beard being attacked because she is a woman she was attacked for what she said.

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

How is calling her a lezzie and sticking a fanny on an image of her face 'attacking her for what she said'?

[ArielThePiraticalMermaid]

They weren't attacking her "for what she said"! Jesus! They were attacking her for daring to say it.


Can you honestly not understand?

[delboysfileofax]

because they were having a go at her because they didnt like her message but rather than taking her apart on that she was abused for the way she looks/dressed

[delboysfileofax]

Ariel- no. Your last message has genuinely confused me.

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

Right, and the obvious method for having a go at someone if you 'don't like their message' is to make vile remarks about sexually assaulting them, speculating on the state of their pubes, and calling them a 'lezzie' as though that plainly discredits everything they've said? And that happens when men have an opinion, does it?

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

WHat is it you're confused about, delboys?

[Hullygully]

I have just been thinking about this in the shower.

After also listening to Cuntface Dave give his ludicrous EU speech.

The vast majority of people are Panglossian, all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.

It is comfortable to think that all is well, that we are governed by our betters for our own good, that pretty young gels are different to smart young young boys etc etc etc

Because if you thought about it properly, you might have to realise how many lies you live in and....god forbid, do something about it.

[Hullygully]

Look at that wine thread - no one cares that Blossom Hill has cynically come up with shite pink floral low alcohol wine cos the Ladies like a bit of sweet pink and can't get pissed with the kiddies, and trialled it on MN cos that's where the Mumsies hang out.

No one cares, they just want the free wine.

Aggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

And EVEN THO IT'S SHITE

[TroublesomeEx]

Some women are just so indoctrinated into it that they can't see it.

Some women are not intelligent enough to challenge it.

Some women benefit from it and so they are happy to buy into it.

We can only position ourselves in the available discourses and the discourses are gendered. Even our language is gendered in favour of men.

[ArielThePiraticalMermaid]

Tell me why you're confused. I am confused by your confusion, I must say.

[TheCollieDog]

To be fair though there are men whose appearance is commented on- usually when people dont like their message; david starkey, nick griffin etc all have their appearance mentioned on internet sites

Yes, let's be "fair" about this. Let's reduce men to flaccid uglified penises, and send them rape and murder threats, simply because they're men who give amn opinion in public.

THERE IS NO LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.

And yes, I was shouting.

[fromparistoberlin]

I think that as you grow older, you become more aware???

kind of like portofino said

hate to say, but when I was a pretty lil 30 something, I did not care!

Now I am a breadwinning 40- year old mum of two, I do

and it REALLY fucks me off that looks are just that smidgen more important for women than men

thank god i am ok looking

[FelicityWasCold]

This thread is now focusing on massive issues- Rape, Violence, obvious hate crimes. These things are shocking and I think, because of that people find ways to rationalize it, and it is easy enough to find examples of shocking things that have happened to men as well. It is not my view that these things are 'equal' but I can see why people want them to be.

If we go back to the casual, the small, the almost insignificant it is harder to rationalize in the same way I think.

This morning I was concentrating on something in the office at work, a man (who is senior to me, but is in no way my line manager), walked into the office said 'Whats the matter with you, I'm the old man, you are meant to be happy'. I was concentrating and writing down my work plan for the day- he was objecting because I hadn't greeted him when he came in. (its a small busy office with 5 staff walking in and out of it at that time of day). I told him I was busy and it wasn't my responsibility to smile and be happy for him, 'but I'm sad, I need cheering up' was his response. I replied that's a shame for you.

10 minutes later outside the office he deals with a teenage girl (he's her form teacher) and she is panicking because she has an exam at the same time as his catch-up session and she needs to miss his lesson, she is nervous talking to him and a bit hyper/fussy. He deals with her and sends her away, saying within earshot of me and and her, 'girls, honestly'. He then turns to me and says 'I suppose you're one of them as well aren't you'.

5 minutes after that it is time to leave for assembly, I've dismissed my form, go into the office to grab my coat- he stands at the office door saying loudly 'Girl!, come on girl, hurry up'. We have plenty of time to get there, we don't have to walk together, but because he wants to I should have known and should be ready.

The tone of all this was 'jokey' in such a way that it is impossible to complain about without appearing to be a miserable bitch. It is misogyny though. Just as it was misogyny yesterday when female students were turned away from the gym because there was noone to supervise them. But the male students of the same age were allowed to stay.

The sequence of events as I have described above what not have happened if I was a man.

[fromparistoberlin]

and I was very snocked and upset when I saw the mary beard stuff

I am am PLEASED we are kicking off, its so important

[delboysfileofax]

The "they werent attacking her for what she said they were attacking her for daring to say it" thats the bit i dont follow.

And again; I was not talking about the sexual comments made about her. another poster stated they only talked about her APPEARANCE because she is a woman.

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

So Delboys do you not think it perhaps makes a difference to the willingness of women to speak up and to argue, when they know they will face this kind of onslaught - that what they say won't be engaged with, but what they look like will?

[TroublesomeEx]

What do you not follow about that delboy?

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

Also I'm not sure you can just decide the sexual comments aren't important enough to engage with in this debate. That's like me saying: I want to be very clear, I am only referring to the comments about her hair, not her features, her clothes or her vagina.

[Greythorne]

Delboy

If your teenage son came home from school and said some kids had had a go at him for wearing the wrong colour socks and then your teenage daughter came home from school and said someone had told her she was too ugly to rape, would you consider the bullying (and it is bullying, in both cases) to be of equal import?

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

Well said, Greythorne - especially if someone said that to the teenage daughter after she dared voice an opinion in a lesson in which she was asked for it....