Foxes

[LatteLady]

Just before I went out to supper tonight, found my next door neighbour in tears coming up her front path... her cat had been savaged by foxes. From the sounds of it, Ralph a sleek cream cat with a ginger tinge will need to be put down as the fox has ripped open his under belly.

This is the third incident in our area over the last week, another lady was walking her dog and had to get between the fox and her dog and then got attacked too.

Am I unreasonable to think that there should be a method of culling this urban menace?

Estimated number of foxes in Uk: 258,000
Estimated number of cats in Uk: 8,000,000

Hmmm.

Punk - I didn't say hunting with dogs isn't illegal. I said hunting is legal if you are clever about it.

Drag hunting is legal, And if a fox 'crosses your path' and the dogs get it thats fine. This in itself makes the law ridiculous because it's nigh on impossible to prove the intentions of the hunt.

You can hunt as long as a bird of prey does the killing (worse than the dogs) and i think you can take as many dogs out as you like.

You can use 2 or 3 hounds to flush to guns. Again, worse. If you have to flush it out IMO theres no need to hunt in the first place as the place clearly isn't 'over run'.

I also find it hypocritical when anti hunt people sit there whining about laws while advocating the activities of groups such as the hunt sabateurs.

Also, a healthy fox has a good chance of getting away from the hounds. It has no chance against a gun. Guns are worse than the hounds. I wouldn't turn a gun on a fox if i had a dog capable of doing the job.

Really? If I were going to be killed, I would rather be shot than savaged by dogs.

Lynette - Not if you were a fox.

Foxes are very fast for a start - If you do manage to get a hit it isn't going to be a one hit kill. It's going to limp off, get infected and die very slowly and painfully.

If a dog gets it its probably unhealthy so already going to die slowly anyway and the dogs will be done in moments.

The hounds are the better option here. If it's healthy it will get away. If it's sick it was going to die anyway, slowly and painfully.

There has got to be something wrong with enjoying chasing an animal for miles until it is exhausted so that a pack of dogs can tear it apart. I wouldn't go as far as to say there is something wrong with the people who do it because mostly they have been brought up to think it's acceptable. As far as I'm concerned though I agree with the ban. It brought fox hunting into line with other laws against animal cruelty. If fox hunters respect the law of the land they should stay within this law just as much as any other law.

Inde - But it didn't. It made it worse. The legal alternatives cause far more suffering for the foxes.

Personally, I have no strong feelings either way, I'm not out lobbying for it to be legalised again, But i don't like hypocrites.

I also don't like the idea of random vigilante groups out spying on members of the public (A la hunt sabs).

You'd tell me to fuck off if i came round your house now and said 'I'm going to check your computer because you could be breaking the law*.

Or people could just leave the fuckers alone Dizzy?

There's a thought eh?

Maybe we could leave rats and mice and cockroaches alone too then. Same thing. They cause us a problem, we get rid of them.

I dont agree with it where there is no problem though.

I understand there's a lot of pleasure to be found in dressing up and killing wild animals for fun. You might like to try a hammer on a hedgehog if you can't afford a pink coat and the fees.

You could grumble about anyone following you, if you had a reputation for hedgehogging, and they saw you walking into the woods with your hammer and a bunch of chums.

I don't think everyone here is against all hunting. I don't like it, but I am a realist. It's the methods used. A fox who is chased, then exhausted, then killed - no I disagree that there is something wrong with the fox. Trust me, they are TERRIFIED.

Don't get me started on the wonky science behind badger culling.

It is man's fault that foxes have come into urban environments. We are sloppy, wasteful.

There are other ways of controlling animal populations - contraceptive implants. Foxes can be caught in live traps and humanely killed.

I will never hear any reason for dressing up like pillocks and making a game of death. Sorry.

If the people killing them are doing it cruelly then they should be criticised not supported. They should be working with the government to find the most humane way of doing it.
I'm very suspicious of all the propaganda put out by the likes of the Countryside Alliance and Daily Telegraph etc. anyway. Before the act came into force they said it would destroy thousands of jobs and all the dogs would have to be put down. It didn't did it.

I would happily sabotage the bastards who go badger hunting in woods. Watch my blood boil at that.

If the people killing them are doing it cruelly then they should be criticised not supported. They should be working with the government to find the most humane way of doing it.

Cruel is open to debate though. IMO hunting was fine the way it was, as it incorporated natural selection (When done traditionally and without dirty tactics just to ensure a kill).

You may disagree with that but niether of us can be 100% right because they are just opinions. You generally give up after a bit BTW if the fox isn't caught. You can't just go off chasing it willy nilly either.

The other thing about 'cruelty' is the people who cry it at the hunts, Yet support vigilante groups such as the hunt sabs who employ tactics such as;

Stalking hunt members (If i stalked randomers around a shop to make sure they weren't stealing id be arrested) to 'make sure' they aren't breaking any laws

Thinking they are above the law - Sorry but if someone is hunting illegally inform the police. You are not the police. You do not do the policing.

Attacking child hunt followers - They are not there to hunt, they are there to have a jolly good day out on their pony, they probably dont even realise a fox is being killed. It is not acceptable to drag children from their ponies to try to discourage parents from letting them go. It is highly dangerous to actively try to spook a pony to throw the child off. This should be classed as attempted murder IMO. It is disgustiong.

Netting hedges, throwing fireworks at horses, setting traps for horses - Oh you're concerned about animal safety? Yeah, but horses aren't animals are they so lets maim them, thats ok.

I could go on...

I understand there's a lot of pleasure to be found in dressing up and killing wild animals for fun. You might like to try a hammer on a hedgehog if you can't afford a pink coat and the fees.

If people did that then everyone would be up in arms. If you are against fox hunting though you are a class warrior apparently. I love the way the press loves to give false motives to people they disagree with.

Cats can be classed as an urban menace too! Cats can be quite evil towards small lovely little animals, such as birds. Does this mean we should cull them?
I am a huge cat lover I have one and back in her younger days she used to torture baby birds, for fun. It used to drive me mad how she could be so terrible, but she is classed as a wild animal by law and is doing what WILD animals will do. But because cats are pets people would be mortified to think of their beloved tiddles being pursued by the local lynch mob.
Foxes are probably just adapting to their environment to survive, the answer is not to go around killing them all. I am surprised though because foxes are usually so shy. These foxes sound like they are so used to humans and the urban environment that they are no longer afraid. I don't know the answers at all, all I do know is that killing them is NOT the answer. If its such a problem maybe the local community could club together to employ the services of a fox expert to help educate everyone on their behaviour and possible solutions.

You can be against the excesses of fox hunting and the excesses of the saboteurs you know.

If people did that then everyone would be up in arms. If you are against fox hunting though you are a class warrior apparently. I love the way the press loves to give false motives to people they disagree with.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. My opinion is nothing to do with class. It's abuot not being hypocritical with your opinions.

I would be against someone hammering a hedgehog to death because it is unnecessary. Same as i am against someone flushing out a fox, or maiming a fox to ensure a kill or any other tactics that make it clear there is no real reason to be doing away with the animal in any way at all.

Yes, Nicola - more science and intelligent solutions. And trust me, some of the stories about hunt saboteurs are not true. I would not of course advocate fireworks at horses - if that is true. Many many years ago, in my very wild and political active youth, I was involved in certain activities. So I know little bit about the inner workings of both sides.

As for children going along for a jolly ride - not entirely true. When you go for your first hunt, you are blooded on the forehead. Children will know very well what is going on. I also don't agree with dressing up bloomin' children to kill things for fun. It's repugnant.

There are many traditional country activities that are not desirable - cock-fighting, dogfights, harecoursing. We cannot keep hold of things because they are traditional. So was wifebeating, once upon a time. The world moves on and we reassess things - thank God for that.

Inde - I'm against the sabateurs all together, on the basis that they are no more than vigilantes who think they are above the law. Anyone who says that fox hunters are wrong while supporting them in any way is a hypocrite. That's all there is to it. Be against fox hunting for all i care - But don't support actions that are essentially the same, if not worse.

'I understand there's a lot of pleasure to be found in dressing up and killing wild animals for fun. You might like to try a hammer on a hedgehog if you can't afford a pink coat and the fees.'

That did make me laugh

Hunting is in the same league as cock and dog fighting, badger and bear baiting, crucifying people and trial by ordeal.

All the same, and all totally and utterly unreasonable in the extreme.

Punk - It doesn't matter what your group took part in. It is still nothing more than a vigilante group. As i said, I couldn't come round to your house now and demand to perform 'survelance' just incase you are comitting crime with your PC.

I take great satisfaction seeing vids of hunt saboteurs plying their trade, gives me a nice warm feeling that there are people out there prepared to put their money where their mouth is and do something about things they care about.

I would be against someone hammering a hedgehog to death because it is unnecessary. Same as i am against someone flushing out a fox, or maiming a fox to ensure a kill or any other tactics that make it clear there is no real reason to be doing away with the animal in any way at all.

So you are trying to say that they chase a fox to death because it's the most humane way of killing them and nothing to do with enjoying it as a sport. But it's me who is being hypocritical.