not lack of jobs - lack of ambition!

[eggs11]

I know very, very little about politics, and if you can help me see this from a different perspective, please do!

A friend is a labour party member, and we recently had a row.I have a good friend (I like her for her personality, not for her life choices) who had a baby at 16 and is on benefits. She has a now 4 year old, starting school in September. She has a huge two bed flat in london (we would love to live where she does! but couldn't afford it), sky tv, the child has a nintendo ds, new clothes all the time, constant days out. I said it makes me angry that me and DP work (we also had a baby young) really really hard. Firstly, I had to go back after 9months, while she gets to sit on her bum until her kid is 5. Secondly, she gets free childcare! She had 2year old funding and 3 year old funding, while the £50 a day to put my 1year old in nursery makes it barely worth me working.

This is the point where we had a row. My labour friend said that it's not her fault that she's on benefits, there's no jobs to make it worth her working. However, if you spoke to my other friend, she has never even considered working. She said to me last week, when her daughter goes to full time school in sept, she has two options: 1) have another baby and get another 5years 6months, which she's planning on doing. 2)Wait until sept, then she has another 6months on job seekers to get pregnant. HOW IS THAT FAIR????? she isn't even looking after her daughter for the past two years, because she's in nursery. Why does this woman get to sit on her bum with free childcare? Why isn't she made to do voluntary work as a fully abled 22 year old with 10 gcse's, or at least made to go with her daughter to nursery and learn parenting skills, which is what I assume they think she lacks if her daughter gets so much funding!

I'm not saying that everyone on benefits/job seekers allowance isn't looking for work. I know how hard it was for DP to find work, it took months of hundreds of applications. I'm saying that while a life on benefits is so cushty and just relies on a baby every five years, no one has the incentive to work! labours answer was increase the working wage. I disagree, she's comfortable, why would she go out to work just for a few extra quid a week?

I wouldn't imagine anyone enjoys sitting in a flat they can't afford to heat, or not being able to afford the little luxuries like a trip to the seaside - my point is that there are people on what would be considered reasonable incomes who don't qualify for any top ups for whom this is a reality. As you say, rents, council tax, childcare are HIGH. If you are a couple with one or two children, paying all rent, council tax, bills, nursery fees, 2 x commutes out of your own income, oh and lets throw in a month where you need a couple of prescriptions at nearly £8 each oh and one of you has terrible toothache and needs a filling at nearly £100 - many people struggle not to be in debt at the end of the month, never mind think of buying ice creams

But also Janey, if you were on a low enough income to qualify for childcare help and council tax benefit you would get it.
Look, I have friends who are in the so called squeezed middle.
They quite often complain about being skint, and what they can;t afford. They are not loaded, but doing OK, no tax credits.
So I sat down with my friend and she told me what they had coming in, and what was going out (mortgage, CT, childcare etc) and I realised I had actually thought they were skint. They really wern't. They had enough disposable income to save every month. They go on holiday every year. They have a car. They can afford to have hobbies. They go out for meals.
Which is good for them, but don't tell me you are skint because you don't get CT help.
I also am struggling to see how someone on Income support S is going to potentially pay £40 a month (in my area) for council tax out of IS. The payday loan companies must be rubbing their hands.

I wouldn't describe your friends as 'squeezed middle' if they can afford holidays and meals out. I'm talking about people who don't quality for top ups and for whom those things would be a pipe dream

ifnotnowthen the concept of bettering ones employment position is an interesting one. Of course for many people working means progression, but by no means all.

Many individuals will work in NMW jobs all their life, either because it is all they are capable of or they have external pressures that make promotion impossible.

It is a fallacy to suggest employment brings self improvement and stability. For many, as they lurch from one job to the next, it doesn't.

www.burtonmail.co.uk/News/Union-MP-helps-rich-but-hits-poor-20130112080000.htm

This is my local MP. Voting on a tax cut for the richest people in the UK, and people say that the benefit system is fucked up?!

Sarabellum- that's true, working doesn't always lead to progression

Thanks dawndonna-I was just looking for those stats!

The thing is, it seems to me, that you can lay out the facts, like those dawndonna has presented, in front of people all day long but they don't hear it over the din of the hatred, envy and misinformation fuelled by fear and prejudice that the media has whipped up.
The other day on BBC breakfast I watched a report about the govnmt's "strivers versus skivers" welfare cuts.
The presenter reported anxiety among voters that the cuts may also harm "hard working families" and not just the unemployed. There were other comments which made it clear that there was an unarguable difference between the deserving poor (hardworking families) and the undeserving poor (scroungers laying a-bed while the hardworkers go to work) and that anything harming the unemployed was just fine.
This is such a common perception now that to say anything else is considered a bit foolish and radical.
But what if my Dad, aged 55 gets made redundant? He has been working for 39 years, paying NI and taxes, not dodging them but paying into the state like clockwork.
He is out of work. He can't find a job. Even B and Q are not hiring.
He is on JSA. What a scrounger, right?

As the stats show, the majority of welfare is not paid to the unemployed. The majority of HB recipients are working, many of them full time.The bulk of welfare payments are paid to landlords. Most people who sign on unemployed are employed again within a year . I know I was.

But then, you can prove anything with facts..

IfNotNow

Amen to everything in your last post. So well said.

IfNotNow

Amen to everything in your last post. So well said.

IfNotNow

Amen to everything in your last post. So well said.

IfNotNow

Amen to everything in your last post. So well said.

IfNotNow

Amen to everything in your last post. So well said.

IfNotNow

Amen to everything in your last post. So well said.

No one is arguing with the stats. They are saying that the current situation is unsustainable. It could equally well be argued that there is a din of misinformation and envy about the squeezed middle. As evidenced above where someone thinks the 'squeezed middle' is people who eat out regularly and afford holidays! Hahahahahaha.
That's well off in many people's eyes.

Ta Jake..what happened there?

janey love.
I havnt always been poor. I used to have an OK job/career where I didn't qualify for any help. I wasn't remotely rich but I could afford those things.
So I have been on the other side of this and am not at all misinformed.
If you are working FT and don't qualify for tax credits, yet can't EVER go on holiday or eat out then either your money management skills need looking at OR you DO qualify for tax credits.

"the current situation is unsustainable."

What situation? The one where only 3 % of the welfare budget goes on the unemployed?

Im not your love btw! Or was that an attempt to be patronising?

I think you're moving in different spheres to many of us if you think that people who don't qualify for tax credits must be mismanaging their money if they can't afford holidays and meals out. Actually I find that quite insulting on behalf of the many families I know where both parents work full time, they get no top ups and are lucky to get to the end of the month after paying the essential bills, rent, CT, childcare etc with any spare, never mind luxuries.
As I say, maybe you move in different circles..

ifnot that patronising "tone" is what drags these debates down

I'm sure someone will know for sure but I believe you don't get TC's once you're on more than approx 50k if you have small DC's. The idea that you can live in the southeast and afford holidays and meals out if you either rent or got in the ladder post 2002 is an absolute joke.

A lot of the differences is in what people treat as essential bill wise,

To some its 1/2 cars, house insurance, boiler protection policy's, activity fees and other stuff like that on top of food heat ect

To others it is just water food heat light

Of course there will be some variation in what people consider 'essential'
But to suggest that a family with young children, living on just over the threshold so having to pay rent, childcare, everything out of their faxed income, must be 'mismanaging' their finances if they aren't eating out and going on holiday, is frankly a big fat insult. There are thousands of families in that position, not just in the south east but many other areas of the UK, who struggle, really struggle to get to the end of the month, not Because of holidays and nights out but because normal real life is so damn expensive.

Oops that should of course be taxed income not faxed!

I think janey may have started the patronising tone....
Plus, I am northern and call everyone "love"!
Yes, living in the southeast is expensive in terms of rent. That is why working people get HB. If I still lived in London I would qualify for HB working at my current wage, even if I worked full time.
The law says you need a certain amount to live on. If you go below that, you qualify for help.

No I haven't patronised anyone, so don't try that one. And I hadn't noticed you call everyone else 'love' on the thread either.....

ifnot you are missing the point. You can earn (considerably more) than the threshold for HB and still struggle to pay rent.

When I last lived in London rent on a two bed in a fairly crapy area was 1400, council tax 200, childcare x1 1,200, tube 300 ish a month then all the other expenses. Tell me how you begin to afford that with each partner earning 25k let alone "holidays and meals out".