to think this is just bad behaviour?

[alisunshine29]

My friend has a 4 year who has regular 'meltdowns' where she kicks/punches mum, cries, shouts, screams etc. In these situations Mum keeps trying to restrain her/tell her to stop which makes her daughter worse. Last night my DD had a playdate with her and her DD had a big meltdown, my friend was in tears asking what she should do with her and whether she should see the doctor about her DD. She said my DD never behaves like hers and so there must be something wrong with her, but in my opinion it's normal (albeit bad) behaviour. AIBU?

I think she should remove the dc from the room for time out alone until she calms down and do that each and every time. I think at the moment she's getting too much attention for it. Obviously give her a short firm explanation as to why she's in time out.

I have a friend who's daughter is never badly behaved, she is just 'struggling' with some emotional thing or other. Exasperating and trying to make her DD who is only 8 yea old a victim of just about anything. The other day she tried to tell me that her DD was 'struggling' after Christmas because she was so bad tempered.... I do get a bit sick of listening to it, The DD also refused to do her homework and had a teary meltdown but that is because she is 'struggling' with Maths (she is actually very bright and doing really well which conversely her Mother admits! Her Mother is going into school today (and this was only on Monday) to ask if she can have remedial lessons to help her....... I do think it is odd when people cannot see their children are just behaving badly, I honestly think it leads them to be very spoiled and indulged if every single gripe and whine is given credence. Clearly I say this as a fairly neglectful parent

Well, if 4 is too old to still be having tantrums, I should despair of my 9 year old. He is currently in his room (after school time already where I am) - sent there to calm down after he started wailing and shouting because he doesn't like the book he has to read for his homework.

I don't necessarily see tantrums as "bad behaviour" as such. Children vary so greatly in how well they can control themselves at different ages. My DS had spectacular tantrums at 4, and although I am sure that he is emotionally immature now, he is much better at controlling himself than he used to be. It's hard for him, he tries to stop himself but he can't always. I see bad behaviour more as breaking rules/boundaries. DS does respect boundaries now, but it hasn't been easy and I've had to be so much firmer with him than with my other dcs.

Children do of course use tantrums to manipulate their parents by making them feel guilty or embarrassed - that's what I think the DD the OP describes is doing. I know several children who behave perfectly for me but give their mum such a hard time. When DS kicks off I refuse to engage with him until he stops and speaks to me normally. You can't simply stop a tantrum with some children and ignoring/sending to bedroom has worked well for us.

OP, I would be inclined to steer away from advising your friend on strategies etc.

Her DD may have SN, or she may not. You are not in a position to diagnose that.

I would be inclined to encourage your friend to speak to the HV and/or her local SureStart centre- afterall this is exactly the sort of thing they are there for.

Whether the child has SEN's or not, clearly the mum needs support and needs to be accessing it through the appropriate channels.

123 Magic is fantastic, as are Raising Children parenting courses which she may well be able to access through children's centres or the HV.

Also meant to say I agree with Cory and we shouldn't assume tantrumming children will become out of control teenagers. The best thing I can do for my DS is stay firm on the boundaries and remain calm when he's losing it.

I think your friend should seek advice as we don't really know whether it is just bad behaviour or there might be other issues that she needs help with. She could try this book while she is waiting to be seen. It sounds like your friend is struggling and needs help.

Sorry I mean professional advice. She could see the GP or HV as a first step and then may be need to be referred to eg. CAMHs.

Ignoring behaviour can be a very good technique. If the behaviour is done to get attention; and you ensure you give lots of attention for good behaviour. Normally though "ignoring" means not responding, but quickly removing from public/danger/situation without giving more than minimal attention.

Not giving children time to prepare for transitions can frequently lead to tantrums or meltdowns, as I am sure most SN parents can also identify with. So 1-2-3 magic could help you friend.

However if she is struggling, then talking to her GP could be a good starting place.

OP I wouldn't get too smug btw, as my easy to discipline under 5 causes some of the biggest problems of my 3 children now she is 9.

Have to say I'm surprised how many people think the child already needs to be assessed for SN - she's 4!

Hands. I agree! Tantrums at that age are still very normal and common.

"Yesterday for example, she didn't talk to her DD once while she was playing nicely, she didn't forewarn her that it would soon be time to leave, the only attention she got was when she was screaming the house down. Friend then snapped and shouted, then cried because she was embarrassed about DD's behaviour and also felt bad that she'd shouted and her DD looked at mine and smiled - while continuing to scream, knowing full well the effect she's having on her mum"

Why not tell your friend this? You can do it without being smug if you're straightforward and keep your observations as factual as possible. E.g. I pointed out to my husband that "you don't like it when I drag you away from an activity suddenly, so why do you think our DD would be ok with that sort of treatment?" and he got better about warning her when it's time to leave.

Whether the child has SEN's or not, clearly the mum needs support and needs to be accessing it through the appropriate channels.

Agreed PatButcher

God there has been some ridiculous judgy shite on this thread!

All the vile tantrumming 4 year olds (with despairing parents) I recall from 12 years ago are now hard-working 6th-formers with nary a criminal conviction between them. The vast majority of children grow out of this behaviour within a couple of years of starting school. Peer group pressure alone will put a stop to it in most cases. Some parents are better than others at dealing with it, but failure to do so doesn't automatically mean you are setting your kids up for a life or crime!

Tell her to seek out parenting classes, as they are useful for tool, especially when you have a difficult child, they can help her with dealing with behaviour and when to spot a meltdown occuring, in time the meltdowns will decrease, and speak to the HV or an Outreach worker at a Children's centre, they can help with the SEN aspect and give the support she needs.

Parenting classes were a godsend, they helped me so much.

Does she behave for other people? I have the same situation with a friend of mine only difference being she has never asked me for advice/help so i've never given it.
Her dd is almost 6 and her behaviour is shocking but only around her parents, when i have her round i only have to give her a 'look' and she knows i mean business.
She also behaves well at school/childminders etc so there's no doubt it's down to how the parents are with her. Basically she screams and screams then her mother gives her whatever it is she's screaming for whether it's her 4th bar of chocolate or a new toy or whatever. Until your friend decides to be consistent with discipline i don't think there's much you can do.

I try to avoid seeing my friend with her dd as it's too stressful and i end up with a headache as her screaming is unbearable.
I can see clearly how my friend could make her life a lot easier/less stressful but until she asks for advice there's nothing i can do about it.

It is amazing on these threads how quick people are to always blame parenting, I have a dd who has severe tantrums, I am not going to tell you how old she is as I dont want a slating, but unless you .live with it you have no idea how difficult it can be. I have over the last year been on a lot of parenting courses to do with the voluntary work that I do, it is only now that I realise I am a good mum and that these problems are not my fault, I am there to help dd overcome them. Your friend sounds like she needs some support and going to see the gp cant ever be a bad thing. Noone knows if the child has sn or not but she still needs some support.
With regards to the term meltdown, dd1 definatly has meltdowns, she is in a place where noone can reach her and nothing you cando will calm her down, this is how I see a meltdown, when the child is not in their won head iyswim.
Please help your friend get the support she needs and dont judge her.

Handsandknees - my child was diagnosed at 2. Do you have a problem with that? If there is a problem, particularly with language or communication in any way, the earlier it is recognised so that intervention can start the better.

It sounds like the mother the OP describes needs some professional help with behaviour management. Whether SN is involved or not, children like this tend to need a very proactive approach, with clear expectations and lots of positive feedback for appropriate behaviour.If attantion is being given for the right reasons, THEN ignoring can be an effective tool against negative behaviours which are clearly button pushing. She also needs to learn to recognise her child's signals and change the pace when an explosion looks to be imminent. If her DC can only stay at one activity for 15 minutes before their attention wanders and they start messing about, then the activity needs to be changed or something new added to it (eg a couple of new accessories presented for a train track) after about 10.

This takes practice and support, though. DH still struggles with it and our eldest incredibly explosive boy is 9. It simply doesn't come naturally to all parents and, face it, not all parents need to be on the ball so much.

ouryve I wondered if someone would pick me up on my comment after I posted it. Of course some dcs are diagnosed earlier (my job in fact is to do that) but on its own having tantrums at 4 is simply not a reason for this!

Really HandsandKnees?
All the professionals say that my DS was showing signs of ASD at 12 months. He had a preliminary diagnosis at 2. Full, confirmed diagnosis at 3. Statemented at 4.

PersonalClown I assume we cross-posted?

Ah yes we did. Not enough caffeine in the system yet!

Oh dear, sounds all very emotional and stressful. Are there any parenting classes your friend could attend to brush up on basic stuff? Not to suggest to her that she is a 'rubbish' parent, but some children just need a bit more than parenting by instinct (which I think is brilliant and fine as a rule, but just doesn't work with some kids). Once she has all the basics in place, then it's worth considering if any more is in play, like special needs etc.

My speech delayed three year old has vile screaming tantrums, but I think they are probably as a result of my parenting rather than her special needs to be honest, particularly as her supposedly 'normal' brother has them as well they never do it for the nanny

Children with no SN can have meltdowns.

You cannot discipline a child DURING a meltdown.

Young children who display behaviour like this can (and often do) grow out of it.

Being consistent doen't provide an instant fix. Sometimes it takes years of being consistent before the behaviour changes.

My niece was like this as a child, she was very very hard work. Even getting her into school was a nightmare for my sister....she used to punch, kick, scream and panic about various issues.

She is now 23 and just completed a degree in journalism, she has grown up and out of the tantrums although at 16 when she was locking herself in the car so she could not be taken t school my sister despaired.

Since my DS was diagnosed with autism, ADHD and dyspraxia though lots more things make sense about my niece. I remain convinced she has an undiagnosed Aspergers ....or whatever they are now calling it.

This Mum's gut feeling is that her DD is not developing like other children....she should not ignore that. I blamed myself for everything (and still d at times) but DS is autistic, he is not simply "badly behaved" although like all children he can be.

She behaves fine for anyone except parents which makes me think it isn't special needs. Parents blame each other in front of her, fall out and aren't consistent. Whoever said about people in supermarket saying they wouldn't let their children behave like it but don't tell you what they'd do - point is I wouldn't let it get to this stage. In my opinion she's been allowed to get away with it for to long. DD has never hit or screamed at me and would never dream of doing so.