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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think 'blacking up' isn't necessarily racist?

297 replies

Fabuloo · 02/01/2013 20:29

Apologies in advance for the Daily Mail link....

this article

I think it's more to do with the intention behind it rather than the 'act'. DD is mixed race and sometimes dresses up in a blonde wig and in the past has put my make up on. My DS is blonde and fair and I would have no problem if he wanted to do the same in reverse. I do feel people need to get a grip...

OP posts:
JustAHolyFool · 04/01/2013 01:11

Er, I think the Americans mocking the English is a bit different to the English mocking the Scots, isn't it?

FierySmaug · 04/01/2013 01:15

Are you actually serious? So the Americans can mock the English, but the English can't mock the Scottish?

JustAHolyFool · 04/01/2013 01:20

Anyone can mock anyone they like, honestly. I'm going to bed. Why don't we all celebrate the fact that it's Friday by blacking up, wearing a jimmy wig and doing that eye thing that non-racists do to denote Chineseness.

Woop de woooop. Good night all.

FierySmaug · 04/01/2013 01:22

Fabulous idea. Good night.

Alisvolatpropiis · 04/01/2013 01:23

Fiery you ignored the Welsh. The English did all sorts to prevent the Welsh language being spoken.

It's still not relevant.

FierySmaug · 04/01/2013 01:29

We English were so bad weren't we? We really should spend eternity apologising for the terrible things our ancestors did hundreds of years ago shouldn't we?
Or not.

BigSpork · 04/01/2013 01:37

I don't see a situation where "blacking up" is right. There isn't a good reason to blackface, yellowface, brownface, or redface. Skin colour isn't a costume, an ethnicity isn't a costume, some cultural, particularly sacred, clothes are not costumes. There are plenty of ways to dress up without those - doing so reduces people to those features, and reduces important qualities (in people and in cultures) to 'a bit of fun' which shouldn't happen.

I find it odd that many people seem more concerned about the discomfort it causes them to be accused of being a racist than the pain of those being oppressed by racism. As if being accused of messing up (and everyone's does sooner or later, particularly in a society built on and continuously benefits from oppression) is somehow worse than the acts of racism/oppression themselves.

The guilt thing is lame. No one is asking white people to feel guilty. No one asks men to feel guilty. No one asks able-bodied people to feel guilty. No one asks cis people to feel guilty. No one asks heterosexual people to feel guilty. And so on. Because feeling guilty doesn't do anything, it does not help.

I do ask people to apologise when they mess up rather than make excuses - we're human in screwed up society, it's gonna happen. Listen, do research from the many free valid sources on the internet from people from these groups who want to educate (those who want to, not everyone does, don't ask random people) as well as many good books and educate yourself (schools don't teach this kind of thing well right now if at all neither does the popular media), educate/speak out/question your own people when they say crap. Use the power position to help those who don't have it and try to minimize the oppression others have to go through, don't add to the weight.

I've smile and nodded through many offensive actions towards me, it comes with the territory of living in this society - I can't win: I go along with it and I'm used as an example of what everyone 'like me' thinks, speak against it and I'm an example of a bad over sensitive one, not the norm. I get no clout unless someone else (white) speaks with me. This happens, today. People are harassed, abused, degraded, and treated as less than, today. The often quoted 'women make X on what a man earn' is only discussing white women, it gets worse beyond that. People are killed for their skin colour and the association with it, today. Speaking about these things as if they are all in the past invalidates and ignores the pain people go through, today, and prevents recognising and fixing the problem tomorrow (can't fix what you can't see).

And because it is of interest, the Depp thing, He said his great grandmother was "Creek or Cherokee or something". It was a vague throwaway comment in an interview, he not a part of either of those nations or is there any evidence of it (he was adopted by one part of the Comanche nation after he got the part but that's highly controversial as held by the NDN media). He could have used his considerable Hollywood clout to get often overlooked Native Americans actors into the part or to actually use actual Comanche attire rather than a white man's inspired painting that's more a caricature than anything connected to a real Indigenous nations; however, after what happened to Marlon Brando I'm not surprised. We've also got Cloud Atlas choosing to spend ridiculous amounts of money to CGI yellowface White faces into Pacific Asian rather than pay Asian actors. Representation is important, it's been shown that people make a lot of assumptions of people from their media representations and people make assumptions about what can be from what they see up there...which is why media has been shown to lower the self esteem of every group but white boys. And people think there isn't a problem today.

Alisvolatpropiis · 04/01/2013 02:42

Fiery are you deliberately being obtuse or are you just ignorant?

PiccadillyCervix · 04/01/2013 03:25

sport, and very well said

PiccadillyCervix · 04/01/2013 03:25

spork

seeker · 04/01/2013 07:40

Hollyberrybush- as your c&p says, the Barbary corsairs operated out of, among other places, parts of north Africa. But at the time, those places were part of the Ottoman empire-a sort of superstate that covered a huge amount of territory, reaching almost as far as what is now Austria. It's misleading to refer to them as Africans. Particularly when discussing slavery. The vast majority of black slaves bought and sold in Europe and America were from West Africa.

So it's not quite right to say that there have been times when black people have had power over white people by referring to the 16th/17th century Ottoman slave trade. Interesting and underdiscussed though it is.

FamilyGuy22 · 04/01/2013 09:50

Has anyone actually considered that it might be an insult to people's intelligence/character to assume that they would get offended by something like this?

theodorakisses · 04/01/2013 09:54

As usual, the reader comments are far more offensive than anything else.

theodorakisses · 04/01/2013 10:00

The little boy isn't racist. Football is. I am white and have experienced some prejudice in the countries I have lived in, the assumptions made about a white western woman, even a plump, middle aged married one caused me a lot of distress. Surely this parents action is inappropriate at best and I personally was deeply shocked by some of the vile Nazi racism reported recently and wouldn't want to give them anything else to hate.

Fabuloo · 04/01/2013 10:51

seeker
Nobody's handwringing. The people described in the op were obviously a bit thick, and blacking the kid up was a bit tasteless and silly and it would have been much better not to do it

For someone who doesn't want to cause offensive, I would say this is an offensive comment, I think the word thick is pretty offensive.

OP posts:
Fabuloo · 04/01/2013 10:53

FamilyGuy22 - exactly, it is incredibly patrionising.

OP posts:
JustAHolyFool · 04/01/2013 11:19

I'm not assuming anyone else would be offended. I am offended. Other people can be offended as they like. I am talking about MY reaction, no-one else's.

BigSpork has explained my feelings exactly.

Blistory · 04/01/2013 11:30

Are you actually serious? So the Americans can mock the English, but the English can't mock the Scottish?

Absolutely. The Americans have never had power over the Scots but the English have so it IS more offensive when an English person does it.

Why is it so hard to understand that the balance of power affects the dynamics so much ?

Men/Women
Whites/Blacks
Able bodied/disabled

etc etc

seeker · 04/01/2013 11:37

Really? If somebody does or says something that indicates that they are a bit thick it's not offensive to say it!

Fabuloo · 04/01/2013 12:09

seeker - I imagine they would certainly feel offended at being called 'thick'.

OP posts:
JustAHolyFool · 04/01/2013 12:36

Fabuloo, do you honestly think that being offended that someone calls you thick is the same as being offended that someone is being racist?

Really?

theodorakisses · 04/01/2013 13:36

There is a big difference between, for example, French people taking the piss out of us or the Americans laughing at our teeth and people in a football crowd targeting black players, making Nazi salutes and the other vile gestures. An English child is unlikely to be bullied by his French or American peers, children who are currently being raised on images of racist bullying that is not to account are more likely to beat up or bully a black child in England, even in this day and age.

tittytittyhanghang · 04/01/2013 13:56

I have thought about this some more and came to the conclusion that some people get more offended than others, and as someone who is not so offended, tbh, I dont see the point in telling the offended why I think they are wrong, if they feel offended, then every emotion is valid blah blah blah and so be it. Im just glad i can tell the difference between actions/words that are racist (in the sense that they are prejudiced/bigotted/nasty etc) and those that are not. Imo there are actions/words that fall into both these categories and usually have to be looked at in context.

Where i do get a bit Hmm is where those offended self appoint themselves as some sort of world moderator. If you dont like the use of certain words/actions then dont use them and you'd be within your right to ask other people not to use them in your company because they offend you. I cant stand it when those on the offence try to clamp down on the (accepted) use by everyone else though.

I think of it a bit like people who find meat/animal skin extremely offensive. Fair dos if thats what you believe but don't try to stop me eating/wearing what i want.

Jins · 04/01/2013 14:00

I agree with tittytittyhanghang to some extent. I make no pretence of being a world moderator. I try to behave in a way that will not offend. If someone else wishes to use terminology or behave in a way that will or may cause offence then that is their choice and they will be judged accordingly.

Or thumped

Either works for me

JustAHolyFool · 04/01/2013 14:03

I don't really get that argument. So if someone says the word "nigger" or "paki" in your company, you don't say anything?

I'd hope men would say something if someone says women deserve to be raped if they're wearing a short skirt. In the same way, if someone says "paki", I will tell them that a lot of people don't like that word and that it makes them sound racist.