Interesting - Bus Company on wheelchair/Pram spaces..

[Bathsheba]

Yes -that old chestnut.

The Chair of the NCT has posted a letter on her facebook page (and has asked for it to be shared so I doubt any problems with doing this) from a bus company's solicitor - the bus company are being accused of being disabalist in not insisting that parents fold down prams/Get off etc. I've posted the info from the bus company below and will happily post a link to this thread on the facebook page as they have been asked to garner as many opinions as possible.

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I write further to our recent telephone conversation. As I explained, we are solicitors acting for Arriva North East Limited, which runs bus services in the North East. Arriva is currently involved in a court case brought by a number of disabled passengers. They are alleging that Arriva has discriminated against them because of its policy on use of the wheelchair space by parents with buggies. The court case is very important as it is likely to decide how wheelchair spaces in buses and trains across the UK can be used in future. Arriva?s policy is that drivers will ask parents with buggies to fold them down if a wheelchair user wishes to board the bus, but if parents cannot fold down the buggy or refuse to do so, they will not be forced to. Arriva believes that its policy is in line with the government guidelines and aims to minimise conflicts between passengers by striking a balance between the competing rights of parents with young children and disabled people to use the wheelchair space. The people bringing the claim have proposed various changes to this policy, to ensure that wheelchair users have absolute priority over the space ? the proposed changes are listed below. Arriva is obviously concerned about the impact of these proposed changes on parents of young children and their ability to use public transport. Arriva has been given until 28 January 2013 to gather evidence on the potential impacts of these changes. We would be very interested in hearing your members? views and experiences on the practical impact of the proposed changes on parents of young children. I would be very grateful if your members could respond directly to me with their views by 18 January 2013.

Proposed changes:-

1. Prohibit prams on board
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus.
3. Get drivers to warn passengers each time they board the bus that they will have to fold their buggies and/or vacate the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board.
4. Offer passengers with buggies onwards tickets if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.
5. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded.
6. Refuse to continue the bus journey until the passenger with the buggy moves from the wheelchair space.
7. Insist the passenger with the buggy leaves the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.

Kind regards,
Adam
Adam Hedley
Solicitor
(contact details follow but I thought best to remove them - Bathsheba)

When DS1 was a baby you weren't allowed an unfolded buggy on the bus at all. There was often nowhere to store a folded buggy as the under-stair luggage spaces were thought to be bomb threats and were taped off.

I used a sling, then a back pack and a shopping trolley. Sometimes I used the buggy as a shopping trolley and put DS1 in a sling for the walk home, having got the bus up the hill to the shops with a folded buggy, before the days of internet shopping and delivery.

I automatically did the same with DS2 21 years later because it was so much easier than trying to fold the buggy with a small child and 6 bags of shopping, when someone needed the wheelchair space.

I don't understand why buggies have got bigger, and bigger and less foldable, and why people are so resistant to moving or folding them as time has gone on. It's just bad manners.

Why are buggies bigger? I suppose they 'do' more - have frames you can attach car seats or carrycots to, for example. I think the desire to have your baby facing you, and flat, are big factors (umbrella folds have to be forward facing).
Having said that, my memories as a child are of giant silver cross style baby carriages, I must pre-date buggies!

3 & 4 are good ideas.

i was on a bus a few months ago when a woman wouldnt fold up her pushchair for someone that was using a wheelchair. she had the child sat on her lap, and had one of those basic canvas push chairs with only 1 bag on it. basically it was a "i was here first so fuck off and wait for the next bus" moments

personally i think there should be more child/family/wheelchair friendly busses and trains. ie on trains have a coach just for parents with buggy spaces by seats, or storage for buggys, extra space etc. and design busses (not all busses) with more spaces for both.

pushchairs nowadays are huge, and everywhere. something needs to change.

13Iggls- yes they do. My comment wasn't in some way saying that they shouldn't ask people to move be because of the abuse they receive ... I have said earlier on what options I think are best and how push chair users need to consider the need to fold push chairs on buses if needed when purchasing one. I was responding to the comments about people experiencing some bus drivers who don't help or who haven't asked people to move to help a wheelchair user. Unfortunately not all do, but on the other end of the spectrum there are drivers who experience completely uncalled for abuse when they ask someone to move.

Also onward tickets may not be available on some buses but it might be wise to ask what the driver can do in those circumstances when a push chair user has to leave a bus mid journey and get another one. My Dad works for Stagecoach and he can ask you to write your name and address on the back of your ticket, return it to him and he can refund you your fare so you are not out of pocket.

Some London buses now have spaces for bugies/luggage on one side and wheechair space on the other.

Having said that, every other London bus I've ever been on (a lot) requires parents with prams to fold the buggy or get off if a wheelchair user gets on. I have seen people refuse and the driver has stopped the bus until they leave/fold. It's not a problem here, although I can imagine it would be moreso in an area with a more erratic or infrequent bus service.

Oh, and I have been given an onward ticket when required to leave the bus.

Is this actually an issue still? I've seen a bus driver drive past people with buggies lots of times, but never drive past a wheelchair. Pretty much every bus I get on have space for wheelchairs, and three foldy up seats at the side that you can squeeze 2/3 buggies into.

Where are these buses where wheelchairs/buggies are competing for space. I've never experineced it in central manchester!

'This is a bus design issue. It pitches two groups of people against each other who both have limited choices'

Sorry, Drjohnsonscat, you are wrong. The rights of the wheelchair user are enshrined in law (The Equality Act 2010, the Disability Discrimination act before that)
There are no rights associated with having a baby and a buggy, or a toddler and a baby, or twins, or a hard-to-fold pushchair, or a lot of shopping, or getting there first. Or whatever other reason you can think of for believing you should have priority. There just aren't.

and the parent pushing the buggy can walk

Option four is the best one, I think. Unless it's the last bus of the day, or buses are very far apart - what then?

It's simple. Priority goes:

-wheelchair users/other disabled people who need that extra space for whatever reason

• disabled parents with pushchairs

• sleeping newborns in prams

• awake newborns (just thinking of being 8 weeks post section and not having slept poperly...)

• older sleeping babies/toddlers

• older awake babies/toddlers

• people with shopping trolleys, suitcases, etc

• if no seats left on bus, people who want to sit down (obviously elderly/disabled/pregnant/small children have already been given sets in the main bus body)

-empty buggies, dog buggies and other such things

It winds me up no end when I get on a bus or train and get told 'you will have to fold that if a wheelchair gets on', because they are basically assumming that I am a twat. I am not a twat. I am allowed to use my disability bus pass, pay for dd1 and put dd2 in her buggy. OBVIOUSLY if the space is needed I will fold it, nd if I wasn't going to telling me that would hardly help, would it?

I have got off a bus before when a wheelchair user has needed the space, but that is once I actually get into the city. If there was one trying to get on the bus into the city I'm afraid I simply couldnt get off the bus as

1. I would then be left on the side of a rural road with a buggy (with newborn in), asd 5 yr old and nt 4 year old on a road with no pavement.
2. I have to walk just over 3 miles to get to the nearest bus that would take me to the city and given that I have mobility issues myself I really do need a seat at that point
3. The bus is once an hour so if I have to leave the bus, I am both miles from home and from the city and would have to wait a long time for the next one
4. Even if I did fold the buggy, there is no storage space and so the folded buggy would still take up space in the disabled space (and there is no buggy space- it is basically a mini bus without steps)

Thankfully for me there are no wheelchair users that use my bus but if there were I'd be screwed. I have no choice but to use the bus as I am medically prohibited from driving and I have to get to doctors and hospital appointments etc weekly for both myself and 2 of my children. Sorry if I sound self entitled but I really dont see any other option for someone in my position other than to stay on the bus.

I cant see a wheelchair user actually being at the side of a rural road as it would be rather impractical btw but hypothetically it could happen. There is a mobility bus service run by a local charity as well for those with blue badges.

I am in total agreement with the disabled people who are raising this issue, but what happens in a situation like mine?

It is bad manners but even collapsible buggies can be awkward buggers. I recall that our MacClaren wasn't very easy to collapse single-handedly (I can recall DW cutting her finger doing it on one occasion) and certainly not with a mewling baby in hand.

Also, perhaps buggy manufacturers need to produce buggies that are actually robust enough to endure miles and miles of walking week-in, week-out. We got through three buggies with each of our two DCs just because the wheels wore out or the chassis broke.

You are right though that buggies seem to have got bigger and bigger - certainly the case since our DCs were babies. We actually purposefully chose narrow, slimline, light weight buggies purposefully because we knew we would need to take the bus on occasions. And we like you would use slings when appropriate.

I guess if it's never been the case that you were allowed on the bus with an unfolded buggy, then parents wouldn't fuss or would adapt (and possibly a lot more might use their cars for short journeys which isn't ideal either for all sorts of other reasons). The problem is that on probably 95 out of 100 journeys parents probably don't have to collapse their buggies so they've got used to a certain status quo; you could probably guarantee that the very times that they are required to do so will coincide with being very tired/not feeling well, being totally laden down with shopping etc....

Under 5s might not pay for their bus fares but their parents do! And quite handsomely too.

Me personally i hate seeing prams overloaded with shopping, buggys/prams are not designed to be shopping trolley.

It is even safe. I have put lightweight things on the buggy, but heavier items i would be afraid of damaging the buggy.

5madthings Here is the reply from First Buses, Norwich. I shall be handing it to the Evening News etc soon. Just need to get everyone back to school etc. first.
Thank you for your email and may I apologise for the delay in my response.

I apologise for what seems a very frustrating situation, however, for health and safety reasons the driver is unable to allow any wheelchairs or buggies to block the aisle of the vehicle, therefore, if there is already someone in the designated wheelchair/ buggy area, it is the driver's discretion to decide whether a further user can negotiate the space. In this instance, priority is given to the passenger already on board the vehicle regardless of whether they are a disabled passenger or buggy user. The suggested procedure for drivers when a further buggy/ disabled passenger is wishing to board is to ask any passengers already occupying the designated zone if they are able to move elsewhere or to request that an intending buggy user folds the buggy so it can be securely stored in the luggage rack.

If you have faced an issue whereby a driver has not followed this procedure, please provide the following details;
Date and time of incident
Boarding location
Direction of travel
Details of what happened
Point is, it isn't stating that a Wheelchair user takes priority. Dd is also taking it to the press.

dawn that is fucking shite!
Pm me if you want any help with complaining, the more complaints to first buses the better!

I agree Ruby, I've seen some ridiculously sized buggies and prams (carrying one tiny baby) on the bus. When you purchase a pram you should consider all the instances in which you are using it. I bought mine with bus & tube travel in mind (slim, lightweight, foldable).

TBH I rarely saw people in wheelchairs using buses until I had the baby and was on ML and then it became a much more common occurrence (probably because I travelled a lot outside rush hour). In all instances except one, the buggy users got off the bus to allow the wheelchair user on, without complaint. It is awful that people must be legally forced to obey the law and behave like decent human beings. I hope they consult disability groups as well.

Dawndonna that sounds very measured and a good response!

This is why i don't take my baby on the bus. I wouldn't risk being asked to get off if a wheelchair user needed the space. i don't drive and live rurally and a bus would be my only way to get to the shops or see people, but with one bus an hour it's not worth the hassle.

i save for taxis. but if i couldn't afford them i would have to buy a different buggy and wear a sling.

it's a shame there isn't room for both, all are citizens and deserve to travel using the mode of transport they require.

It's not a response that says wheelchair users take priority.

I have asked before on a bus/wheelchair/buggy thread - but does anyone know the position on disabled children in 'normal' buggies? Ds is 2.5 and will be using his buggy ( a Mountain Buggy usually, or a Maclaren xt if on the bus) for a long time yet. I wonder whether it is worth making some sort of sign that makes it clear that it may be difficult to get him out of his buggy (he can walk, but is unsteady and often floppy) and it is, in effect, being used as a wheelchair.

"i save for taxis. but if i couldn't afford them i would have to buy a different buggy and wear a sling."

But that's the point. You CAN buy a different pushchair. Or use a sling. A wheel chair user can't change. If everyone was more considerate then this wouldn't be an issue. But because some people with pushchairs feel they are entitled to the space then it comes where someone has to point out to them that wheelchair users are protected in law against discrimination. Hence why we have have spaces on buses.

Now it seems a shame to ban pushchair users as they do make life much easier. But it's not fair on the bus drivers that are lone working and possibly at risk of abuse if they ask someone to fold a buggy.

Its not discrimating against parents to ask them to put a pram down for someone who has no options other than to be in a wheelchair.

Parents have choices, disabled people don't.

Gazzalw, you choose to be a parent and use whatever kind of baby transport, but if you are disabled there is no choice.

I can't see someone saying 'oh I know, I'll chop off one of my legs to make sure I get priority on the bus'