that games are an 18 certificate for a reason?

[theluckiest]

Friend on FB has posted a pic of his nephews glued to their xbox. Headsets on, big gamer chairs, not moving for hours. This is actually not the issue but I admit to cracking out the large (super stretchy thanks to Xmas) judgy pants when I saw the conversation under the pic. Kids are 6 and 8. They were playing Call of Duty, Black Ops which is an 18 certificate game. Quite a few replies from other people with witty comments about 'starting them early' and that they will be beating their dad soon enough.

I admit I huffed and tutted. Asked dh what he thinks as he is an occasional gamer and he was horrified as he plays this and it is very graphic. Do people not realise that games have certificates? Or not give a shit as it keeps the kids quiet?

And yes I am prob BU and my judgy pants are straining with the effort but I am a teacher so get judgy about stuff! Last year one of the kids in my class used to include some horrific stuff in his writing about heads exploding, people on fire, shootings. He spent hours playing COD, Grand Theft Auto, etc. with older brothers (he was 7).

Maybe I have finally become an old fuddy duddy stuffed shirt.....I remember watching 18 cert horror movies but am sure I was a young teen then (not 6!!) and games seem far more insidious as you become involved iyswim?

No sex or bad language in Skyrim?

Ha! You strike me as the badger type.

Mushroom mushroom.

It is of no surprise that most parents don't care for video game age ratings, as this recent survey shows:

www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a445094/video-game-age-ratings-ignored-by-majority-of-parents.html

Bruffin Germany is notoriously strict with video game censorship, it doesn't surprise me.

I was going to disagree over Rocksmith and say it was probably down to sex and drug references in the songs, but a quick look at the track list shows that not to be the case. I imagine it'll be down to just one song perhaps, the way one episode in a boxset can raise the whole rating, in conjunction with PEGI being somewhat heavy handed.

I do however disagree with something being exempt from higher ratings just because it's fantasy. It's not just the realism of games that get taken into consideration for ratings.

It's not a PEGI fail, PEGI has always put games with swearing into a higher category. The games developers will have had ample opportunity to lower the PEGI rating, no one has forced it on them. They've actively made the choice to market at those over the age of 12. Just because other media don't do the same doesn't make PEGI's choice wrong.

It's worth noting that developers get to choose which bits they submit to PEGI/BBFC for rating. So if they really wanted to avoid the higher ratings they could (let's face it, PEGI/BBFC can't have someone play through every single game release and see every single possible scenario) so it is the developer who actually makes the biggest difference to the rating. PEGI aren't some overbearing censorship fiends.

"I don't think it's as emotionally intense when it is fantasy and can be better explained to young kids as not being real"

That's just daft logic, I'm going to assume that all enemies in Skyrim aren't dragons. (NB: Basing this assumption on a love of fantasy RPG's/experience) Some will be humanoid. If not actually human. What is the difference between shooting one human in COD and shooting another in Skyrim? As for levels of violence?

But of course, you are now going to tell me that blowing someone's brains out is actually worse than decapitation?

Murder that video!

I think PEGI can be heavy handed, for example I see no reason why Plants vs Zombies can't be a 7 rather than a 12. I can only assume it's because the zombies are 'human-looking characters'. I think the jumps between 3, 7 and 12 are quite ridiculous, there's barely any middle ground between 3 and 7 which is probably why some games are getting shunted into the higher category.

Skyrim however, and in fact any open world game like it, should always err on the side of caution due to the absolute open nature of the game, Sure the developers didn't create Skyrim so someone could kill people, strip them naked and arrange them in degrading positions after death, but if the possibility is in there it must be taken into account.

I do dislike this idea that just because something is fantasy it is automatically 'better' or somehow more high brow. It's just as violent, we're just using different weapons.

^No sex or bad language in Skyrim?

^

that's about the equivalent of barbie doll porn

And if my children were 'killing' their dolls in a gory manner, stripping them naked and simulating oral sex I'd find that a cause for concern to be honest!

"that's about the equivalent of barbie doll porn "

So barbie doll porn would be ok for children then?

Stunt Have to say, after watching that video I suddenly want Skyrim! Have to finish Dragon Age 2 first though!

The games developers will have had ample opportunity to lower the PEGI rating, no one has forced it on them.

That doesn't seem like much of choice to me, more like blatant censorship. Either make the cuts before or we will make them for you or give you a higher rating is what you are saying?

Just because other media don't do the same doesn't make PEGI's choice wrong.

Well it is wrong as it is inconsistent and doesn't fit in with what people are used to. Like all those songs that people have been listening to for decades. Now all of a sudden these PEGI peeps deem them unsuitable for people under 12. And they wonder why parents don't care for their new system. They are completely out of touch.

Skyrim however, and in fact any open world game like it, should always err on the side of caution due to the absolute open nature of the game, Sure the developers didn't create Skyrim so someone could kill people, strip them naked and arrange them in degrading positions after death, but if the possibility is in there it must be taken into account.

But are young kids actually going to do these things in the game? where would they get the knowledge from? It would be a different matter if the game instructed them to do the youtube clip above as a side mission but it doesn't.

"That doesn't seem like much of choice to me, more like blatant censorship. Either make the cuts before or we will make them for you or give you a higher rating is what you are saying?"

No, it's not. They choose which scenes to submit. They could quite easily only submit tame stuff. PEGI wouldn't have any way of knowing (until the inevitable outcry anyway) They choose what they want PEGI to rate, knowing full well what things will earn them what ratings.

"Like all those songs that people have been listening to for decades. Now all of a sudden these PEGI peeps deem them unsuitable for people under 12."

You've never seen these then? Or noticed that you can't have swearing on TV pre-watershed. It's not like PEGI are the only ones saying that swearing isn't suitable for children.

"It would be a different matter if the game instructed them to do the youtube clip above as a side mission but it doesn't."

So despite giving them the means to decapitate characters without explicitly telling them to do it means it's child friendly?

Also in terms of fantasy not needing the same ratings, you might want to look at other fantasy games, eg. The Witcher and Dragon Age. Definitely 100% not child friendly.

Some people keep mentioning 15 rated games, I thought PEGI was 3,7,12,16,18? No 15 as far as I'm aware?

Lulu You're right

Back on the subject of Skyrim, have you read PEGI's explanation of why it's 18 rated
"Extreme violence - Violence towards defenceless people"

Back to the Skyrim/COD comparison, COD=killing armed soldiers before they kill you. Skyrim=killing defenceless people. So much better for kids than COD right?

You've never seen these then? Or noticed that you can't have swearing on TV pre-watershed. It's not like PEGI are the only ones saying that swearing isn't suitable for children.

yep and i can assure you none of those songs on Rock smith would warrant such a sticker and are played pre-watershed on tv and radio uncensored. Also i am all for warning parents about the content of a game/film/song as i stated in my fist post on this thread, it's the age rating i'd like to see dropped or reduced to a more sensible level. I think it is the parents responsibility to judge this not the nanny states as kids mature at different ages.

The Witcher and Dragon Age. Definitely 100% not child friendly.

yeah the Witcher 2 is pretty full on but didn't think Dragon Age was that bad at all. Also thought DA 2 was pretty disappointing, seemed too repetitive but loved the first one.

In one DA storyline there is a rape. Definitely sex in the one I played. Oh and my character made enemies explode into a cloud of blood. Which was amusing to me, but not suitable for kids.

It's been a while since I've bought CD's, but when I was growing up any song with swearing on had that sticker.

"I think it is the parents responsibility to judge this not the nanny states as kids mature at different ages."

I'd agree with this if there weren't so many idiots out there who believe that video games are only for kids and never for adults. Far too many of them just don't bother looking into the content of games. Let's face it, a huge amount of them are/were totally unaware of PEGI. So I'm happy that 18 rated games are no longer allowed to be sold to under 18's.

Some people keep mentioning 15 rated games, I thought PEGI was 3,7,12,16,18? No 15 as far as I'm aware?

the 15 is a BBFC rating for films which did apply to games before PEGI which makes it even more daft that now between the two we have a U, PG, 3, 7, 12 ,15 ,16 ,18 to contend with.
Why not just have a U, PG and X (which I would rate at a 15+) and be done with it?

tbf, games aren't exactly cheap so it's usually parents buying them for their kids and most parents are fully aware that COD etc are rated as 18+ but they still buy them.

I already said further up the thread that I think some games which are rated 18 are not particularly offensively violent or graphic imho and I wouldn't have much of an issue with 13/14 year olds playing them. There are others which I think the 18 rating is entirely appropriate for.

However, I do think that teenagers will inevitably listen to 'inappropriate' music, watch scary, gory and nasty movies (and probably, unfortunately, a lot of nasty porn), drink the occasional alcopop, try smoking cigarettes and play these kinds of games. You might be able to keep a lid on it in your own house but a lot of parents are going to be a lot more lax and it's hard to control what's going on when they are with friends, and it's pretty hard to socially exclude your child from hanging out with friends outside of school because you're concerned that other parents might not share your views.

So I think that on the whole it's better to be open - if your 14 year old really wants COD (for example), discuss it with them, what your reservations are, and then, if you are so inclined, let them have it but with restrictions - no headset to talk to other players, internet is switched off at night so they can't sit up til 4am playing against people on the other side of the world or their friends from school, if the console is in their bedroom they play it with the door open so you can monitor what they're up to from time to time etc.

I know a lot of mums will disagree with me on this, as they are perfectly entitled to, but that's the kind of route I would take with kids 14 plus. Under tens is a whole other story though...

PS) Also love Final Fantasy! My DH would be so excited if my DS grows into wanting to play that...or Fifa lol

Dragon Age definitely has sex in it.

I love Skyrim but it's definitely more violent than I would like a child to play. I don't know about you Dancer, but in an open ended game don't you sometimes do shit just to see what happens? That's how children can come across inappropriate content in a game.

I think it boils down to this: no one thinks the games they play are that bad and are better than the games other people play. I'm as guilty as the next. When you enjoy a game it can be easy to try and justify it for X reason. But the thing is two different regulatory bodies, the BBFC and then later PEGI -who we as a society have placed to make these decisions on our behalf - both decided that Skyrim is not suitable for children and young teens. To argue against that is probably pissing in the wind.

And lucky for you the law is on your side anyway. You can buy all these age rated games on your kids behalf and then let them play them at home. It's what everyone else is doing.

No, it's not. They choose which scenes to submit. They could quite easily only submit tame stuff. PEGI wouldn't have any way of knowing (until the inevitable outcry anyway) They choose what they want PEGI to rate, knowing full well what things will earn them what ratings.

Apologies, you are indeed correct with this, but naturally one would think that a developer would try and get away with the lowest rating possible as to increase it's range of customers and hence sales. But thinking about it some more, with games such as COD or GTA I imagine they probably want an 18 rating as a sort of badge of honor, as if to say this is the 'real deal'. I expect fans (kids especially) would be put off if say COD only received a 12 rating for example, thinking it has been watered down or was 'kiddie'

Dragon Age definitely has sex in it.

it does but it is of the clothed dry humping variety. There are more raunchier scenes in your average PG rated Bond movie.

I think it boils down to this: no one thinks the games they play are that bad and are better than the games other people play. I'm as guilty as the next.

hey I liked Skyrim but i am not the fanboy type, i just used it as an example of how it was rated originally a 15 by BBFC and is now an 18 by PEGI.

But the thing is two different regulatory bodies, the BBFC and then later PEGI -who we as a society have placed to make these decisions on our behalf - both decided that Skyrim is not suitable for children and young teens. To argue against that is probably pissing in the wind.

No it was this so called elected government who have appointed them, not society, I don't recall being asked to vote on this matter, do you? When the majority of people are completely ignoring the ratings system, i don't see how arguing against it is pissing in the wind. If anything it is PEGI who are pissing in the wind, given that anyone can post the worst bits of a game on unrestricted youtube, which can be accessed by all ages. How many parents would actually ban their kids from youtube? Not many i imagine.