to keep dc away from MIL - not usual MIL type stuff WWYD? LOOONG

[NcNcNcNc]

MIL has a on/off again partner of 5 years. DH and I don't really know him, probably met him 10 times. They now live together. I've only known MIL for 6 years myself so don't know her well either.

Over last 12 months MIL has been part of our lives, seeing the dc every couple of weeks or so. About 3 months ago she brought her partner with her and when they took our youngest dd (3) out for the day they did it together - no problem. This has probably happened 3 times. MIL asks to have dd rather than us asking her iyswim.

Last time it turned out they'd bathed dd and MIL's partner was in the bathroom during this. I said to DH privately that it must not happen again. I'm not seeing 'peeeedos' round every corner, I just don't think its appropriate for a man I hardly know to be bathing my dd or in the room. DH agrees. There is a history of child abuse in their family, the abuser is no longer alive but we are all probably extra sensitive due to this.

Week ago my eldest dd (8) said she didn't want to go out with them again because they 'shouted' at her and also told her to stop cuddling her sister (the 3 year old) as she (3 yr old) was too old for cuddles She doesn't want to see them again even if we stay with her.

Today we mentioned to the youngest dd that she was going to grannies on monday and she screamed no. We said 'you love granny blah blah' and she kept on saying no she didn't want to go, that she didn't like granny or x, her partner. Really strange. She has said she'll only go if we stay with her. She's 3 so hard to get to what is driving this.

So WWYD? AIBU to keep them away? Should I...

Mention the bathing thing and that its a not to happen again? How?
Tell them that eldest dd doesnt want to see them due to 'shouting'?
Tell them that youngest dd doesnt want to see them either?

I can't see this ending very well. Should say I'm not suggesting any sexual abuse has taken place at all, the bathing thing is a separate issue really, just makes me think MIL's judgement isn't good. I do wonder if they've been shouted at though, smacked maybe??

eta definitely wouldn't be sending DC if they are reacting so strongly but would want to try & get to the bottom of it. I just can't imagine my DC suddenly being scared of visiting granny or grandpa unless something happened to trigger it & I'd sure as heck want to know what that was

Custardo - exactly re the cuddling thing, it could have been eldest smothering youngest iywsim, context definitely needed.

Diddl - eldest dd was at school so they only had youngest.

They've only had eldest dd once on their own, that was the time she came back and said she didn't want to go again.

Should probably point out - eldest dd is mine but not DH's. That's caused problems too, always bring presents for both (far too many presents for my liking) but will give both dds a toy then also give youngest dd a massive bag of clothes they've bought for her on top.... eldest at 8 notices and I feel really for her. They do tend to ignore her a bit in favour of youngest.

Last time dds saw them we and my parents were there too and MIL's partner snapped at youngest over something (minor). My mum was really annoyed as he is 'nothing' to either dc (as is only MIL's boyfriend) and also the way he spoke to youngest was too harsh.

Will definitely not send them alone again either together or separately.

Causing some friction with DH as if left to me I'd merrily not see them again at all, but obviously he doesn't feel that way about his mother.

My family spend time with relatives as a whole family - why can't you just do that for a bit and see how it goes. If she starts asking questions then just tell her you miss your 3yr old, your 8yr old is missing out and you would prefer to spend time all together.

Whereyouleftit - bloody good question. I've just asked him, 25% scared of upsetting her and 75% terrified of her!

Chased - they got her ready for bed so that when she got back to us she could be put straight into bed if she fell asleep in the car. I didn't realise when they said this that they would bathe her - I though give her milk put pyjamas on etc.

Orcidee - abuse came out 6 years ago because DH's DF died. SIL couldn't/wouldn't mention before because she didn't want to upset her DF (it was his dad) SIL and the MIL have ok relationship now. No other children in family, SIL has a DS but hes 20 odd now.

Lechat - exactly, I want to know what happened (if anything) Like your way of phrasing it about 'dc suddenly not wanting to go'

I like LeChat's way of asking too, it's non-confrontational but straightforward. I wouldn't pre-empt it with 'it's probably nothing' or 'we're probably being silly' etc as you have good reason to ask and it's not silly or minor. I would feel very suspicious if an answer like 'oh how ridiculous, you know what chdren can be like' as well.

I understand that your DH will want to keep seeing his mother, but is it possible for him to mainly see her without your DCs? If her partner overreacts that way while you and your mother are there, I would worry about whether he is worse when you are not there (in a verbal abuse / smacking way, not a paedophile way - hope that makes sense!)

Marche - its weird, DH would happily go a year without seeing his mother - they have a strange relationship, she openly tells you (she told me the first time i met her!!) that SIL is her 'favourite' I actually thought I'd misheard

She's been vile to him in the past, it was only the last 12 months they'd started speaking again. He is genuinely terrified of her again. She was v scary when he was a child apparently. I have never seen her be like this with my dd or else she would be dead but she was very screamy/shouty when he was young. She's always been super lovely to my dds, apart from the favouritism thing.

However, he thinks it would be wrong to keep her dgc from her for the third time.

He has agreed to only supervised at the moment till we try to work out more what is going on.

Thank you to everybody who contributed to the thread, its really helped me get my thoughts together and be able to back up rationally why I feel how I do.

However, he thinks it would be wrong to keep her dgc from her

Actually, the children's welfare comes first. Don't force them to see her if it's causing them distress. And I don't like the sound of the partner and I feel the bathing is inappropriate given how little you know him.

"However, he thinks it would be wrong to keep her dgc from her for the third time."
Third time? When was the first and second time, and why?

It's not about her needs its about the kids needs.

Has the older one verbalised anything at all that may indicate what happened?

whereyouleftit - sorry i meant ' ' for the 3rd time, i'd put 3 x in a row.

I think the little one has done something naughty , they'vce told her off, she's cried and elder one has gone to comfort her and they've told her not to.Simple as that.
Why don't you just ask
.If the MIL is in the bathroom too I don't see the bathing thing as a problem (unless the elder one likes privacy)

I'm at a loss as to why you ever left your children alone with her in the first place...
The bathing thing is totally totally inappropriate of then too.

Think only of your kids - it doesn't matter if she feels offended. All that matters is your children.

If you don't want them to go, and they don't want to go...why would you send them?

"She's been vile to him in the past, it was only the last 12 months they'd started speaking again. He is genuinely terrified of her"

"However, he thinks it would be wrong to keep her dgc from her"

I'm inclined to think that at some level, very deep, he's 'buying her off' with access to your child. I'm sorry, but I think in relation to her, you need to take charge here. Their relationship is so fucked up, he is a frightened child again with her around.

SO, what would I do? I think I'd not want his woman around my family. Even if she presents no danger to your children (and I'm not saying she doesn't, she might) she definitely presents danger to your husband. I'd want to protect him from her presence. She's only been around these past 12 months, I'd try and get her to bugger off again. Sorry .

I think you should listen to your children.

They are being very clear.

Screaming no and repeating that they don't want to go, please don't make me go, don't leave me ... is not a normal response to a ticking off from a loving grandparent.

I wouldn't send my dc's to them again. They could come to you and see you as a family but there's no way that I wouldn't respond to an extreme reaction like that. Something happened to your dc whilst with them that made your dc unhappy, whatever it was you would be letting your dc down to make them go there again. And long term your dc may lose trust in being able to tell you things.

The paternal grandfather physically abused and from your husbands grown up fear, it sounds like he was mentally abused from his mother. Do not send them to see her. Remember - the standard line is unless there has been a long standing relationship which would harm them if removed, then grandparents have no rights to see your children. You're doing the right thing in listening to them and questioning why they should even go. Don't ask MIL - just tell them the the children got upset and didn't want to goad therefore won't be there full stop.

No i woukd not send them. Supervised visits are fine. Don't spend your time worrying about what will happen.

This thread is like a wake up call.

The problem is, the MIL I see is lovely to the dc and lovely to me. I can't reconcile the stuff DH says about her as being her iyswim, but I know its true because I've been there when the texts have been sent/he's been on the phone to her etc. And some I have seen first hand.

I feel guilty about cutting her off, I feel really sorry for her (the MIL who is lovely to dc/me etc). But the 'other' side of her I don't care about, I think she's mad.

When our dd was born, MIL was invited to visit, but without the boyfriend (who we didn't know AT ALL back then). She texted that if he couldn't come she wouldn't come either (to see her newborn, only gdd!). And she didn't. Hence big fall out/no speaking for ages.

Whereyouleftit - you're very clever He said as much to me last night, that because their relationship was so crap he thought he could make it better through the dc, by allowing her to have a good relationship with them.

My SIL came up once to go to a special sports memorial for their deceased father (died about 3 years before, was still happily married to MIL when died). MIL went too and took partner and partner's adult son, she told SIL and partner's adult son that they were now step brother and sister as her and her partner had eloped and got married the month before!!! kept it up all night before admitting it was a 'joke'... nice

Keep your children by you and don't let these people be alone with them.

I wouldn't let your DD's see the MIL without you there. I don't think your DH can be relied on to supervise as he has been conditioned by her in childhood.

Whatever has gone on to put them off, in future just don't allow unsupervised contact.

"The problem is, the MIL I see is lovely to the dc and lovely to me. I can't reconcile the stuff DH says about her as being her iyswim, but I know its true because I've been there when the texts have been sent/he's been on the phone to her etc. And some I have seen first hand."

What that says to me is that she is a convincing liar. You KNOW what she's done. But despite that, she can put on the nice-person-persona the way you and I put on a jacket. And that means she can choose to take it off anytime she pleases too (and does so, with her son). For that reason, I would never allow her to have the children without my being present - I would not be able to tell which version she had chosen to be when I was not there to witness it.

Also, right from the start, she has prioritised her boyfriend over her GC, choosing not to visit without him. Chose not to see her granddaughter for the first two years of her life. I see no reason why she wouldn't prioritise him over them now, and in the future.

"I feel guilty about cutting her off, I feel really sorry for her (the MIL who is lovely to dc/me etc). But the 'other' side of her I don't care about, I think she's mad."
Both sides are the same person. She is two-faced. A good liar. Prioritises her on-off boyfriend over her granchild (and son, and daughter). Is that really someone you should feel sorry for? Please, please, do not feel guilty about this woman. She will use it to manipulate you without batting an eyelid. Treat her with caution at all times, and never, never trust her.

Where - all the things you're saying are the things that have been going round and round in my head. I lurch from 'but she's lovely' to 'hang on she's done loads of terrible things, she's horrible'.

Her partner did something crap at our dd's nativity the other day - came miserable, spoke to no-one, not even my parents then grabbed the Head as soon as she came off stage to talk about h&s issues (i had a thread on here about it). I was mad about it but then MIL texted and said 'I couldn't bear to lose you and the dgc again' and I felt really lousy and horrible.

I just can't square up the two sides in my head. I actually said to my DH months ago that MIL is like a snake because I know what she's capable of and no matter how lovely she seems now I still know so I'd never turn my back on her.

DH has to go on his own tmrw as I promised eldest dd she didn't have to go (even with me). He's been threatened with death and I think after reading this thread his eyes are more open so hopefully will honestly update me afterwards.

Once that's out the way we can just be 'unavailable' for a while I think.

DH told me lots of stuff last night... like how when he was young he asked her for something she was eating and she said 'would you want shit if i was eating it too??'

oh and the underwear story... SIL was 14 ish and an uncle (different side of family to the abusive grandfather) bought her a basque for her bday and asked her to model it Both DH and SIL remember this. DH reckons MIL was in the room at the time

This is all totally fucked up.

"... but then MIL texted and said 'I couldn't bear to lose you and the dgc again' and I felt really lousy and horrible."
Manipulative cow . She didn't 'lose' you - she thrust you away with both hands.

Just remember - a nasty person can pretend to be nice. But a nice person cannot pretend to be nasty (nor would they want to). The nasty is the real her. The nice is a facade; a mask of convenience she puts on to get what she wants. She uses it to manipulate you, to use your niceness (which she turns into guilt) against you. DO NOT FALL FOR THE FACADE.

A thought - she chose to have no contact - how did it restart, twelve months ago? Who initiated it, and why?