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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think lack of mental health care is not why the USA has school shootings

63 replies

sashh · 18/12/2012 04:18

Listening to Radio 4, they are talking to comeone from Columbia University.

He is saying that it is difficult to get mental health care in the US unless you have really good insurance.

Apparently the US press are saying that if MH treatment was better then there would be fewer shootings.

Now I know some, very few, people with mental health problems can be violent.

But surely the problem is not menatl health provision but that it is so easy to get a gun whether you have a mental illness or not. Are violent or not.

I believe there should be better mental health (and all health) care. But I don't think that will stop school shootings.

I don't think banning all guns would either - for a start there are so many oout there it would be impossible and we have such strict laws but we still had Dumblane.

Sorry sort of rambling here, can anyone articulate this better?

OP posts:
FlamingoBingo · 18/12/2012 04:25

Yanbu. It is rather more complicate than lack of mental health care and legal guns. For a start, if society ran better there would be less need for mental health care.

In general people act antisocially when they have really deep self-esteem issues, and that can't be solved just by mental health care, it needs to be fixed at a much deeper level and that is why it's sp complicated. A society that cared about each other and was based on love and co-operation rather than hate and competitiveness could have all the guns in the world and no health care and they would have no problems like these school shootings.

EllieArroway · 18/12/2012 04:40

I think you're right - but I also think it's six of one and half a dozen of the other.

It definitely is more difficult to get MH care in the States - although, by all accounts, this young man came from a comfortable family so I'm not sure that was the issue. (Would probably have had good health insurance, etc).

But, while the vast, vast majority of MH sufferers pose no danger to anyone (except perhaps themselves :() - for the few that do, guns are quite easy to come by.

I don't know what the answer is to all of this. I cannot see the majority of Americans giving up their "right to bear arms" - and limiting guns to law abiding citizens wouldn't make much difference, because nearly 90% of these incidents are carried out by people with no previous convictions & using legally obtained guns.

People sometimes flip - they just do. Here (usually) they go beserk with a knife, which is bad enough - but a knife cannot cause the kind of massacre that an automatic rifle can.

CheerfulYank · 18/12/2012 04:51

Well, it's not just access to guns either, is it. They've got guns on guns in Switzerland, don't they? And not nearly the gun crime we do. (By "we" I mean America.)

AKissIsNotAContract · 18/12/2012 05:00

YANBU.

However it is crazy that majority of US voters are against healthcare for all but in favour of guns for all.

crescentmoon · 18/12/2012 05:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DozyDuck · 18/12/2012 05:27

Well I think as good as the mental health care is anywhere, people can sometimes, very suddenly, just snap. I don't have the reasons for that, but it's nothing to do with their existing mental health. Both people with mental health issues, disabilities and those seemingly with no issues at all can snap.

The issue is definitely what they can get their hands on when it happens (if it wasn't a gun it would have been something) and what security exists around buildings with a lot of vulnerable people inside (e.g. Schools with children)

EllieArroway · 18/12/2012 05:31

That's rubbish, Crescent. Looking for explanations is not the same thing as trying to "exonerate" someone. The fact is that often these men ARE loners, bullied etc.

I really hope that you're not comparing this with what I think you are comparing it to - "certain community" being Christians, right?

Completely irrelevant and you know it.

CheerfulYank · 18/12/2012 05:34

That is true, unfortunately. People will snap and kill people with any damn thing. Like that man in the UK who killed all his kids in the car, ffs. :(

But we need to restrict automatic weapons, and we need to at least try to make guns harder to get ahold of. And I say this as a gun owner myself. (Well, it's DH's, but it's here on our property.)

CheerfulYank · 18/12/2012 05:35

I think Crescent probably meant white, non-poor people.

DozyDuck · 18/12/2012 05:37

You're right they will use anything they can get if they snap Sad

But it's still nothing to do with long standing mental health conditions. Probably a lot to do with stress.

EllieArroway · 18/12/2012 05:41

Hmmm, Perhaps. But given that most mass shooters tend to be white, privileged men then her point is still irrelevant because there aren't enough examples to make the comparison.

Anyway, don't want to de-rail. Like I said, don't mistake explaining with exonerating, Crescent.

YouSeveredHead · 18/12/2012 05:53

It's very telling that these tend to done with legally held guns. Obviously they are not in their right frame of mind because of what they do but would they have been picked up with better mental Heath care? Even when it's happened here they are legal guns.

YouSeveredHead · 18/12/2012 05:54

crescentmoon it's the same with anything, think of when children go missing for example

crescentmoon · 18/12/2012 06:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

crescentmoon · 18/12/2012 06:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

whatsforyou · 18/12/2012 06:32

We have such strict gun laws because of Dunblane. There are groups out there that fought very hard ensure that something positive came out of that tragedy Sad

We never had the same cultural attitude towards guns as America but it wasn't always as it is now. You will get isolated incidents every where but as some one already said, you do a lot less damage with a knife or even a rifle than you can with the assault weaponry available in America.

YouSeveredHead · 18/12/2012 06:46

He snaps because it offers comfort and security to the rest of us. It makes people feel safe that there aren't people out there thinking like this all the time when the truth is that there must be.

bradywasmyfavouritewiseman · 18/12/2012 06:55

but in favour of guns for all

In America there are restrictions on gun being held by those with diagnosed mental health issues.

saintlyjimjams · 18/12/2012 07:17

I'm not sure these people snap. In previous school shootings there's often evidence for years of planning. Columbine was supposedly planned for 2 years. I think we need to move away from the idea of snapping and look at why someone is so alienated from their community for so long.

saintlyjimjams · 18/12/2012 07:19

I think a man may snap and kill his family.

I'm not so sure there's evidence that someone snaps and fires into a school. The evidence is usually for long term planning/fantasy from people who do this.

Original poster
sashh · 18/12/2012 07:27

whatsforyou

I know they were tightened after Dunblane, but they were fairly strict before that.

In America there are restrictions on gun being held by those with diagnosed mental health issues.

I think someone posted on another thread that in Japan you have to prove you do not have mental health issues before you get a gun, which seems a better way round.

cheerfulyank
Could you use that gun if neccessary - I mean against a robber / burgler, not rabbits or deer.

Even if guns could be had here I know I couldn't.

OP posts:
CheerfulYank · 18/12/2012 08:56

You're right, the school shootings don't usually happen because someone "snaps".

Sashh. Yes. Probably. I mean, logically I couldn't, it's unloaded and we don't even often have ammo for it; DH hunts with his brother (who has the ammunition) and loads/unloads it at the hunting site.

But would I be capable...I think yes. I used to think I never could, but then this happened less than a week after my son was born (terribly upsetting, don't read if you don't want to) and I realized that yes, if I thought he were in danger I could and would shoot.

RedToothbrush · 18/12/2012 09:05

Lack of mental health care is a contributing factor but not the only reason. The fact will always remain that whether you are mentally well or ill, if guns are freely available then there will always be more opportunity for events like this to happen.

However lack of mental health care does seem to be responsible for a lot of American crime. They have done studies which seem to show that people with pre-existing mental health problems tend to turn to drugs much more often as a way to cope with their problems. The drugs don't appear to trigger the mental health issues which would be the most logical argument here. Then people turn to crime after becoming addicted, in order to fund their habit and to cope with their mental health problems.

If people in this vicious circle are given free access to mental health support and drugs they have been shown to be far, far more likely to succeed in rehab programmes, and be able to give up on a long term basis.

Its interesting stuff and very thought provoking.

natation · 18/12/2012 09:15

CheerfulYank Switzerland also has a poor record on firearms deaths, so do other countries with high rates of legal personal gun ownership. Compare UK's firearms annual death rate from firearms at 0.25 per 100,000, Switzerland at 3.5 (top 20 in world) and USA at 9.2 (top 20 in world), El Salvador top with 50.36! Most Swiss firearms deaths are suicide which don't made world headlines.

lljkk · 18/12/2012 09:17

Nancy Lanza was the registered owner & enthusiast, she kept them locked up. I am under the impression that even under English laws she would have been allowed to keep them in her home under those conditions.

The background to this incident is very complicated.