to think lack of mental health care is not why the USA has school shootings

[sashh]

Listening to Radio 4, they are talking to comeone from Columbia University.

He is saying that it is difficult to get mental health care in the US unless you have really good insurance.

Apparently the US press are saying that if MH treatment was better then there would be fewer shootings.

Now I know some, very few, people with mental health problems can be violent.

But surely the problem is not menatl health provision but that it is so easy to get a gun whether you have a mental illness or not. Are violent or not.

I believe there should be better mental health (and all health) care. But I don't think that will stop school shootings.

I don't think banning all guns would either - for a start there are so many oout there it would be impossible and we have such strict laws but we still had Dumblane.

Sorry sort of rambling here, can anyone articulate this better?

Most of these killers seem to come from wealthy families for whom lack of access to healthcare wouldn't be a problem.

Another point to consider is that the extensive media coverage given to cases like these perpetuates the trend. The media have created a narrative around mass killings and the idea of playing the central role in that narrative appeals to certain minds, it would seem.

In terms of gun laws, its not just gun laws that need to change but also attitudes to guns.

You CAN legally own a gun in the UK. I know a few people who do. Admittedly its a lot harder to do so in this country, but people who could choose not to, not just because of the laws but also because of the social acceptability of owning a gun and the thought process that you do not need to own a gun to protect yourself.

A sizeable number of Brits argue the case against guns just from one fact alone: You are more likely to be killed by YOUR OWN gun, than someone else's. So to say you need it you protect yourself is an utterly devoid argument.

And fighting against attitudes that wilfully ignore this fact, needs more than just changes to the law to make real differences.

It was the case in the tragic Sandy Hook Shootings that the guns were the MOTHERS guns not the son's guns. So it made no difference what his mental health was, in terms of gun ownership as they weren't his and as far as we are aware, there has been nothing to suggest she had problems. The son did live with his Mum, but if he hadn't, and he'd moved out would it have stopped him from gaining access to them, if he wanted? Probably not. Would new laws look at all members of a household? Unlikely. And would they look at extended family who didn't live at the same address? Even more unlikely.

You need to reduce the sheer number of guns in circulation to make any meaningful difference. And that has to be down to the social acceptability of guns changing, not the law.

There were 2 large school massacres in Finland in the 2007 and 2008, less than a year apart - not a coincidence that Finland has a high level of legal firearms possession too and as yet has done nothing to reduce it. A little research into these massacres will show that the 2 were connected in that both shooters had a fascination with US school massacres and were part of an internet group of those also "interested" in these massacres. Without doubt the media plays a part in these massacres, but it would be hard to say that media is to blame, simply media makes it easier for these disturbed minds to have more knowledge to fill their disturbed brains.

if I thought he were in danger I could and would shoot.

My mother has an expression, "I'd die for my husband, I'd kill for my child" which sort of fits with what you have said.

Mental Health provision is shite almost everywhere. I hang out on British and American forums for a mental health issue and the carers there appear to stuck in the same "boat going nowhere fast" that I am in, due to a lack of resources. The vast overwhelming majority of people with MH issues are let down not just in terms of support and adequate treatment, but also by the fact they are at elevated risk of being harmed or killed. A tiny minority of people with MH issues will be a danger to others, at this time there is no system that can accurately predict 100% of those who will one day pose a threat. Due to a lack of crystal ball production.

I think in his book about Columbine Michael Moore touched on what may be one of the the more important contributory factors in America's elevated rate of gun related injury/death, a culture of fear.

Rolling 24/7, (oft a little hysterical) media may also be a factor. The almost guaranteed result of insta-fame, notoriety in perpetuity a potential element of motivation in some cases.

Having said that, more support and adequate treatment for mental health issues can never be a bad thing, and less guns lying around can't hurt.

and less guns lying around can't hurt

FEWER ffs

This is a very good article looking at possible reasons.

Sashh that's about it, though in all honestly I could probably shoot to save DH too.

I don't know what the answer is...especially not at 4 a.m. Must go to bed! :) But sometimes I wonder if it's gun laws that help, or it's the population being in the place, the mindset, to make laws restricting gun use. Maybe if they're already in that place, there won't be as many shootings to begin with.

I'm sure that makes no sense. It does in my head, but...I'll be back after some sleep!

I've also heard an American on R4 Today pgm, seriously advocating that what the US needs is not better gun control, but to remove all people with mental health issues from the community before they commit a crime.

Not so that they can be supported or treated, but to incarcerate them away from 'normal' folks .

Panto what an interesting article.

pip Can believe that :(

I find these threads unbelievably sad.

As the parent of a child (and now a young man) with Asperger's who has received little or no support of help for any of his issues, and is now self-medicating with various types of drugs, I do think mh issues are not taken seriously enough.

There is little forward-thinking - just reaction to serious incidents . In fact, because ds hasn't been violent to strangers, society as a whole is happy to ignore his violence to himself and to us.

However, thankfully, because I live in Ireland, even if my very unhappy, distressed and angry son decides to kill someone, he won't have an automatic assault rifle to do it with, so isn't likely to do quite as much harm.

mh issues need treatment. But a killing spree with a knife/baseball bat/pellet gun won't produce the carnage that has occurred in America.

Panto

I think the article has put its finger on something, reading about the worst mass murder in a school in the USA's history and how school shootings in the States have evolved since the 1700s a sense of loss of power and an aggrieved state do seem to feature notably.

I wonder if it's a bit of both tbh.

I wonder how much support the mother had,apparently she was considering moving to the other side of the country to get him into the school he needed and felt she was losing him.She must have felt so isolated and desperate dealing with a young man with that many problems maybe alone.

If it's hard enough to pay for healthcare for the rest of the body getting insurance for something as subjective as mental health must be very hard.

It sounds as if she had issues herself so maybe wasn't the best person to be in charge of guns.

I don't want to speculate as all the info won't be available yet but maybe she was let down along with her son.Obama mentioned better mh care so maybe he's aware of something we don't know yet.

They'd have lost a few candidates early from the recent Presidential elections if they'd done that, pip.

I think she was probably let down Polka. She has been criticised for removing him from school, but many children with AS and/or mh issues simply can't cope at home. She must have been under massive pressure coping with him alone - many parents of children with such issues get divorced because of those pressures.

She may well have been taking him to a shooting range because guns had become his special interest and she thought that by letting him shoot on a range it would get it out of his system.

She might even have let him keep guns in the house for similar reasons.

I would be interested to know where the ammunition came from - I know nothing about the case and am aware that I am speculating wildly, but I wouldn't be surprised if he managed to get ammunition from some sort of illegal source that she may not have known about.

I feel sorry for her - there but for the grace of God go any one of us, imo.

People with mental health problems are less violent than the general population. It is discriminatory to restrict their access, and not others. And it is pointless, however it does fuel fear of mentally unwell people for no good reason and it fosters security in "normal" people who are the ones who 'snap' and kill people.

but to incarcerate them away from 'normal' folks

That's not just in the States unfortunately. The nun helping me with the kids I was teaching yesterday expressed the same sentiments, at the top of her voice, while pointing at one student (currently being assessed with the potential for a diagnosis on the autistic spectrum) saying "we'll be hearing about him having done the same thing in ten years time otherwise!".

The kid is five. And already written off as a mass murderer in waiting by somebody who is supposed to be involved in his pastoral care (for now, I have reported the incident)

Until yesterday I have never heard anybody overtly express fears for public safety when it comes to children on the autistic spectrum so I find it hard to believe the above was mere coincidence. I really do think the media needs to reel its neck in before it helps creates the same distrust/fear of people with autism that it managed to create for people with schizophrenia.

Pantofino: that is a very interesting article, I have heard this theory suggested before but not put as well.

there appears to be a lot more to this story than initally sugggested ie: mother not a teacher at the school, both of them were 'Doomsday Preppers' they did have access to health care etc. .

The thing is to my mind, if someone is of the mindset to do something like this they will, but the access to guns is so much easier in the USA, therefore guns are more likily to be used and more deaths.

Sorry I didn't mean to suggest that anyone one wh is a 'Prepper' etc is likely to do the same, just wanted to say you can't 100% trust what is being reported.

From personal experience I have found a lack of understanding and a near medieval attitude to people with mental health issues anytime I have been in the USA. A cros between they must have brought it on theirselves/ they should just get over it. .

I discussed with my cousin (in the states) who's husband is a police officer. She said there's very little provision for individuals who are mentally ill and violent - every few months her husband has to arrest the same person, who gets sent to prison/hospital for a few days until he calms down/is on the correct medication, then he's out in the community again until there's another incident and the whole thing repeats. If a family can't afford the right medical treatment, medication and care, there are very few options.

Every time there is an incident like this, gun sales drastically increase.

Humans always stock pile weapons when they feel insecure, it's a vicious circle,

If the society you live in is constantly in fear, being told that they have to engage in conflict for it's own protection, those in that community will feel the need to invest in personal defence.

so it's a self perpetuating problem, which will only mean these situations will become more and more frequent.

No one is ever going to gain office in the USA, with a view to banning guns.

I went to high school in the Philadelphia suburbs,(Mainline, very preppy) in the 80s, all my friends had access to guns, it was encouraged, in the same way I make my children take a torch for safty when going out at night(we live in a rural village), most of my friends were made to put a handgun in the glove compartment,

the only thing I find surprising about these tragic shooting is that they don't happen more.

God, guns and guts made America, lets keep all three. bump sticker of choice for many.

There are USA citizens who love every gun in the country to be melted down, as they can see what is going to happen, they get treated as if they are a threat to the nation.

watching many conversation on FB over the last few days, those that would like a weapon free life, get completely attacked.

I too am amazed there aren't more gun-deaths in USA. 16,000+ accidental shootings occur each year, says here.

Telegraph article says Adam's mum encouraged her sons to enjoy shooting to teach them responsibility & to improve self esteem.

The Brits and early colonial history are to blame: The British banned early colonists from keeping arms at home (the Brits forced colonists to garrison soldiers AND realised that it was a hazard to those soldiers if the colonists had own guns on premises, such was the strength of resentment about it). The Indian Wars were only just out of living memory, and guns had been main reason why the colonists won.

Then the American colonists pushed west for a century & again they felt they needed guns for safety against the Natives & any other marauders, living as they did in isolated homesteads.

Or blame the Puritans, if you like, and all their silly ideas that fed into the vision of Manifest Destiny.

Even now in parts of Alaska you would be foolish to live or travel without a stonking big gun in case of meeting a Kodiak bear.

Not sure why I bother, but I think the knee jerk assessments don't help. There's a lot of history in why the 2nd Amendment was written in, why it was so important as to be the 2nd amendment. And continues to be treasured.

I come from a vehemently pro-gun-control family, btw, but I don't think simplistic perspectives will change anything.

No I don't think it is because of mental health issues. I don't think sadly that these shootings can ever be totally prevented. But stricter gun laws would make them less frequent. The thought that anybody can get a load of guns and keep them in the house is quite frankly terrifying.

There is an American woman (met through fertility board) on my facebook who is arguing that the answer might be to arm and train the people in the school/teachers so they can fight back. Or to hire war veterans to patrol schools.