to think it's not on to leave granny and great-aunt out of extended family festivities?

[theancientmarinator]

I genuinely don't know and would appreciate other viewpoints. I have four siblings and we all have partners and kids. My DM and DA both suffer from dementia but the early stages of it - they don't know what day of the week it is but know who everyone in the family is. They live in a home 80 miles away. My DB and SIL live nearby and give a great deal of their time to the two old ladies - DB pops into the home at least weekly and he and SIL (who is delightful!) have them to lunch every Sunday. They are having them both over on Christmas day as well as SIL's parents and all their own kids. As a family we have never all got together on the 25th (my mum refused to be a MIL who kicked up a fuss about not spending Christmas Day with her married offspring and actually probably went too far in the opposite direction) but always get together (anything up to 25 of us) a few days later for a lunch and present swapping frenzy. We have done this since the late 70's. This year a decision has been made to leave the two old ladies out of this lunch because my SIL wants a break (she and DB would top and tail the day with an hour's drive each way with the old ladies in the back seat telling the same stories over and over and over...)

On the one hand I completely understand my SIL's viewpoint. On the other hand DM and DA are going to know there has been no family gathering and, even if they don't work out that they have been left out, I think they will be really sad to not see the whole family as usual. And I am not comfortable with hosting a family get-together from which my Mum has been excluded. Or of setting my son the example of treating slightly irksome older relatives this way after a lifetime of loving us all when we were young (and equally irksome!) I don't know what is more unreasonable - to just go along with this and exclude my DM from what might (but probably won't) be her last family gathering. Or to pull rank on the basis that it's at my house this year and insist my DM and DA are brought along too. Comments please!

It sounds like your DB and SIL see more of them than you do and therefore might be more aware that the two old ladies would actually find it stressful and upsetting to be in the middle of a big family gathering. This is often the case for people with dementia, which is a progressive disease so even if they were OK last year they may be more confused and more easily upset.

Any moment, and we are going to merge Solid.

I have four siblings and we all have partners and kids ....... My DB and SIL live nearby and give a great deal of their time to the two old ladies - DB pops into the home at least weekly and he and SIL (who is delightful!) have them to lunch every Sunday. They are having them both over on Christmas day as well

So your brother sees them both at least twice a week? May I ask what you and the other 2 siblings do with regards to visits? If all the siblings had the 2 ladies for lunch once a month then the onus is not on your DB?

Also, I drive to see my parents for Sunday lunch with my family and they live just under one hour away so not the greatest of distances. I don't understand why you, your partner/DH can't pick them up or one of your siblings as surely you can't force your brother and his wife to bring them or ban them if they don't? By the way I think attempting to "pull rank" isn't going to do you any favours if your visits are few and far between!!!!!

80 miles away is more than an hours drive too surely? plus it is likely to take some time getting them ready to leave at the home, then settling them in when they get back.. it is making what should be a relaxing day into what is more of a trial for your DB and DSIL. They are already having both ladies over to them on Christmas Day too.

Sorry OP but you are coming across as BVU. Lovely as it would be to have your mum and aunt there, you need to contribute to the work that will go into making that happen. Your DB and SIL do alot for them already, and are fully justified in wanting to enjoy one party without being "on duty".

I think you've had your answer from most other posters. DB and SIL do lots for granny and great-aunt and, fairly reasonably, don't want to get landed with this chore too. (80 miles is a 2 hour drive each way). They are already having them on Christmas Day. If you want your DM and DA to come to your house a few days later then it seems reasonable that, as you are organising the day, that you collect them and return them, rather than expecting other guests to do the ferrying about.

Can you have the family gathering somewhere more convenient for your dm and da so they can be included? 160 mile round trip does sound a lot in one day for two elderly ladies with dementia, mild or not.

So they are already having them on Christmas Day, and want to relax and enjoy a family lunch a few days later without being responsible for two fragile old ladies? Sounds very reasonable to me.

And just what the fuck are YOU doing for you DM and DA over Christmas, op?

OP I think you are being unreasonable.

How often do you see your Mum and Aunt and involve them in your lives.

Having been one of the the 'close' relatives when my Grandma was in a home, it was really bloody annoying when other branches of the family hosted things and would just expect me, or my Mum and Dad to bring her along and we would of course end up being responsible for her because we spent most time with her.
It is utterly exhausting, and actually pretty depressing to feel that you can never relax.

Perhaps you could organise a taxi - maybe one of the staff from the home would like to do some very well paid overtime and be their nurse for the day?

Why don't you have the elderly ladies to stay over Christmas and then your brother and his wife could take them home when they come down to the lunch. That way it will be less travelling for the old folk in a single day and your brother gets a break at Christmas ( sounds like he does more than his fair share already)

Is this one of those reverse thread thingies? I ask because, from what you have said, you are obviously and clearly BVU - and appear to be both selfish and thoughtless towards your DB/SIL too.

I apologise if I have the wrong end of the stick.

To be fair to the op, she doesn't say how much she does already for her dm. She could have other caring responsibilities and be doing as much as she possibly can.

I didn't mention what I do in the normal run of things for my DM and DA because the post was already overlong but, since you ask, I visit fortnightly, have them over for Sunday lunch every few weeks and am having them over for coffee on the 23rd. I had already considered picking them up and taking them home myself but think that this would not resolve the issue of DB and SIL wanting a break - and I know if I offer to collect DM and DA my DB will feel guilty and insist on doing it which defeats the purpose. DM and DA are fine visiting for a few hours, by the way, but definitely start to get antsy after about four hours so an overnight would be out of the question. (I don't know where the nappy comment came from - didn't mention anything about incontinence and it is not an issue as yet.) The rest of my siblings, within the constraints of living further away, do their share - the issue is not of one DB and SIL having to do everything, or even feeling that they do. In fact the issue is not about who is doing 'enough' or not - it's simply whether, with the event happening to be in my house this year, the onus is on me to sort this out for my DM and DA or to follow my gut instinct to give SIL a break. Pulling rank was meant in an ironic way. Surely nobody would seriously refer to 'rank' in a family context? The fact that it is in my house doesn't mean it is 'my' event and I can do what I like - other family members' feelings have to be taken into account - but I can't see a way to take everyone's feelings into account that doesn't leave either the old ladies feeling abandoned or my DB and SIL feeling overruled.

Ok, well could your db and sil stay at yours instead then and that's a good reason for them not taking your dm and da back?

I think it would be reasonable to have a chat to you db and say something along the lines of "we know how much you do for dm and how you deserve a break and we insist on doing the toing and froing this time because we want dm & da there".

Maybe a compromise would be them bringing them and someone else taking home?

It's a long was for a few hours though, so I can see why db & sil might like the break from it.

Another compromise might be arranging another family get together later on closer to where dm & da live.

was? way

Sleepy I was also wondering if each family visiting DM and DA at separate times over the festive period might, in some ways, be more of a pleasure for them - several different events to enjoy rather than one big and slightly confusing one? I really don't want to make DB and SIL feel bad about this - SIL has had a rotten two months with various other things going on in her life. She often hosts the Christmas Do so that it's near at hand for DM and DA and having it at mine this year was specifically to give her a break. I think if we try to find somewhere nearer the home SIL will feel got at for not hosting - which is absolutely not my intention. I suppose if this is the only complication in our festive arrangements I should feel grateful really.

You are seriously driving 2 elderly ladies with dementia 160 miles in a day to have them for coffee? I work with people with dementia and TBH if they're not that bad why are they in a home ,do they have other medical issues? Are you really doing things that are in their best interests or to assuage some kind of guilt that you feel ( probably unnecessarily)

I think it's so hard. I'm with DHs family abroad this year....and the family are leaving his lovely Aunty out of Christmas day because SIL does not get on with her.

DH and I were that MIL said "I have to put my DD before my sister."

The aunty has had a terrible heart attack a few months ago and is very vulnerable. DH and I have decided to spend the afternoon of Christmas day with her..we are taking our DDs up there to see her. She would be entirely alone all day otherwise!

I am sure it will cause some upset here...because MIL and SIL will miss the kids...but hard luck. The Aunt has done nothing bad...it's just that SIL is very difficult and a bit spoilt.

Do as you see fit OP.

I think they'd much prefer it tbh. A few visits by small groups are likely to be less confusing and less overwhelming than a big party. Plus, no travelling for them so they're likely to be on better form/less tired and more able to enjoy their visitors.

If you want them there, go get them yourself. An hour's not really that much.

Ah. Is it too much trouble?

Agree with everyone else, sounds like they do more than their fair share. They deserve a break too, you know.

Are you seriously referring to your mum as "an old lady"? Sounds more like what you'd call the next door neighbour. Seems a little odd to me. I think your DB and DSIL deserve a break. Why can't you all individually spread your christmas visits to them over a month or so?

Mrs M I had considered just collecting DM and DA and to hell with what everyone thinks but... SIL is a truly lovely person. If she says she needs a break she REALLY needs a break. And it's not about me being 'forced' not to invite my mum - if I make an issue of it my DB and SIL will back down immediately - it's about finding a way to balance what SIL needs with what I think might really hurt the feelings of two much loved relatives who have been right at the heart of the extended family for decades.
I think DM and DA would actually find it much easier having a series of shorter visits and outings. We all usually take them out for lunch/coffee locally or visit in the home and they seem to be fine with that length of outing. They seem to be fine coming through to mine every few weeks too but that is for a small gathering not a big, busy crowd. It's not really the question of whether it would be better for them to come to the big event, its the question of how they will feel if they realise they have not attended a big event for the first time in almost 40 years. I don't think they would work out that we all went ahead without them - but how ghastly for them if they did. If I was in their position I would be desperately hurt. We could all lie to them of course - and I think that's what it will probably come to - but I don't like the idea! Then again I don't like the idea of riding roughshod over my SIL's very real and justified need of a break.

I think, having read the various comments above, I have to accept that there is not a perfect solution to this, but my SIL's needs at the moment are more urgent and on this occasion should be the priority. DM and DA might be upset about not seeing everyone together - but they might not. If I force my SIL into a situation she has tried to avoid she will definitely feel hurt.

I am really grateful to everyone who took the time to think about this and post insightful and helpful comments - it has helped to get a bit of perspective on this. Hope you all have a happy and stress-free Christmas!

PS - family in-joke to call them the old ladies. We have all been doing it since they were in their late thirties and approaching 40. They refer to themselves that way too. Should have clarified earlier!

I agree with sleepyhead, even for elderly people who don't have dementia, small groups of visitors on a frequent basis, not staying for a long time is much more enjoyable for them. A large noisy gathering can be extremely tiring and confusing, and I think the travelling would be exhausting unless they can sleep during the journey.

My father worked in Geriatrics, and he said that some of his patients would ask to be taken to the toilet while they had visitors, usually because they were finding them a bit wearing!