To not like this Idea of a new multicultural Britain

[monkeyfarm]

I suspect this probably won't go down too well but I'm just being honest as I'm interested to see if I'm the only one who feels this way?
I hate how things are changing, how I can be in a store feel like I'm in eastern europe, why are we one of the only countries that do this? why can't we take a leaf out of the book of Australia and open our doors to people who have something to contribute and not just all and sundry?
Am I on my own in feeling this way?

That's the strange one though. If you lived for years in China or say Thailand, even if your children were born there - you still wouldn't be considered to belong or Thai or Chinese (obviously more difficult due to the race difference.

why not though?

But if we're going to go on working and paying taxes as a criterion for acceptability then what do we do with all the people who were born here who don't work? Obviously I am not talking about the usual run of people temporarily down on their luck, or struggling long term in the current climate with the jobs market, I'm talking about the small hard core of people who have no intention of ever working.

And as for trying to fit in - what would that mean? Personally I would say learning to speak the language functionally would be a key measure, but what else? Give up your native faith or mode of dress? Give up the food you're used to, the music, the literature? Where do you start, and more importantly, where do you stop?

And as for trying to fit in - what would that mean? Personally I would say learning to speak the language functionally would be a key measure, but what else? Give up your native faith or mode of dress? Give up the food you're used to, the music, the literature? Where do you start, and more importantly, where do you stop?

Language definitely yes - the others, no, don't be daft. Give up your 'native faith' for what, given that many 'indigenous british' aren't christian any longer? The other things harm no-one else, and variety in such things can enrich all our lives. However, I'd say that 'fitting in' means not trying to impose your ways of doing things on the rest of society. And it does involve obeying the law, and adhering to societal norms - in particular equality.

Pointy what can you do if they are born here. Not alot it seems.

I don't think they should have to give up things like dress or food but definitely learn to speak the language. Freedom of religion is very important.

alemci this is exactly the point I'm trying to make - the right-wing media make such a big deal out of immigrants being a huge drain on our society, they write so much negative crap about them - I refer you to my comment above re Daily Mail headlines always stating the ethnicity of a criminal - if he/she is foreign.

People should only be judged on their merits.

Grimma you do have a very valid point about obeying the law, specifically wrt equality. Which is another reason why I am in favour of making language learning compulsory - it would help to prevent the exploitation of immigrants and the abuse of women who are being kept prisoner because they are unable to ask for help.

Parts of our society wouldn't work at all without immigrants.

Today on the radio 'Crossing continents' was about immigrants into Poland - they now find they need Ukrainian nannies, Belorussian builders and all sorts of east asians (particularly vietnamese) willing to work hard for low pay.

i thought it was obligatory for immigrants to do language test now?

nailak you need to do the language test if you want to become a British citizen, not if you just want to live here - which means if you're an immigrant from the EU, you never have to do a language test at all, since you do not need a work permit or leave to remain. I've never done a language test and have no intention of naturalising, unless the UK ends up leaving the EU. In which case I will (with a bad grace) do the language and citizenship tests, fork over an extortionate amount of money to the Home Office and continue the life I've built here. And I will continue to support Holland in the football.

Actually you have to demonstrate a certain level of English for most visas.

I didn't think that was the case for EU immigrants?

I am going to be more controversial.

In my big African opinion (we never do things by halves!) I think:

you stop being a guest, when you appreciate the institutions of Britain, how they came about, why they are important and why they work AND YOU SUPPORT THEM 100% OVER YOUR CULTURE OF ORIGIN.

Which are:

1. the rule of law. This is the number 1, vital rule for a country to work.
2. the separation of parliament from the police
3. the independence of the judiciary
4. the separation of church/religion and state (read the history of the reformation).
5. the law of property
6. the law of contract.

I might have missed a few, but these are why Britain works in terms of safety and the ease of life and jobs. The lack of/blurring of these, is why the shit holes people like me Nailak and others come from, do not work and why we/our families/all immigrants VOTED WITH OUR FEET.

Bottom line, end of, and British leftie apologetic right-ons need to STFU and defend them, be proud of them. You have no idea what life is like without them!

Because, in order for the above 6 things to have happened, Britain and Europe have gone through hundreds of years of turmoil, civil wars, revolutions, the death of kings, the turning upside down of religious certainties, to develop these and to get WHY they are important, and to keep them above powerful leaders, movements who want to undermine them. The latest being, the leftie Gramsci progressives whom I love so dearly and would like people to wake up to

Now, don't get me wrong. There is a lot of Britain that I don't agree with. Broken families, Godlessness, how the welfare state subsidises misery, unwanted old people (but why is death so feared), all largely the result of progressive social theories and their implementation (but that is another rant).

However, I need to be honest about what it is about Britain that is way, way better than my own continent, and why I am here. I have to admit that we in Africa, have a a problem with the abuse of power - before I start screaming about colonialism imperialism and exploitation and how everything is Britain's fault. Bitching about something that is 70 years old in order not to admit the basic problem, is to be a victim. Asian communities should admit to themselves what does not work about their countries, instead of demanding rights to be 'like home'.

And Britain should enforce these things very strictly, demand subscription to the British institutions as a pre-requisite over cultural practices:

Africans who manipulate benefits and the care system (Victoria Climbie, anyone?), Somalians who genitally mutilate their girls or involved in the pirate trade, Eastern European human and drug traffikers, cultures that devalue girls and don't want to educate them, Pakistanis and Bengalis who honour kill, force their daughters to marry and who import endless cousins, militant muslims and psycopathic islamic 'scholars' like Abu Hook Hand and Qatada, should be summararily deported back to their places of paradise within a week of being arrested and without trial. Who cares about them.

So I would say the test of when you stop being a guest is when you are honest with yourself and quietly drop what is not good about your culture, which does not work in your own country of origin, and embrace those 6 or so British institutions above all else, instead of screaming victimhood and rights and being indulged.

Britain, the cohesiveness of Britain, and people who are grateful and loyal and add to Britain, is what counts.

PS be in no doubt whatsoever: religion, the ability to control people's minds and the way they think, = power.

Enormous power for the leaders of religion. This is what Henry VIII was all about, and why the Reformation was so important, why church and state is separated.

Sorry clipped I had my solicitor head on!

EU citizens (and their dependents) don't generally need visas. There are other names for their documentation. They do not need to show they can speak English.

People coming from other countries who need visas... In most cases visas require that they can demonstrate the applicant can speak and understand a certain level of English.

pointysetta I have travelled in the opposite direction as you - the government here used to provide official translations for some elements (e.g., tax office) in both English and German too. However, about 5 years ago they decided that if you wanted to live and work here, then you needed to speak Dutch. Fair enough. You also now need a "reasonable level" to claim bijstand.

If the whole EU were to fall apart I have no idea where you and I would end up...

"you stop being a guest, when you appreciate the institutions of Britain, how they came about, why they are important and why they work AND YOU SUPPORT THEM 100% OVER YOUR CULTURE OF ORIGIN"

but uk is my culture of origin?
i have nothing of african culture in me?
I grew up here in this culture and followed it, absorbed it, lived it.

So people who dont agree with the house of Lords or first past the post or whatever are guests then? and there bishops in the house of Lords? if you dont agree with this are you a guest for not agreeing with the institutions or not a guest for believing in separation of church and state?

and those anti capitalist protesters camping in St Pauls were they all guests and not considered British enough?

Nailak - did you ask me why say a white British person will never belong in places like China or Thailand even if they lived there or we're born there and considered Chinese or Thai? Because the local people will never accept us or really want us there. You would always be foreign, not one of them. I guess until they have a huge influx of 'others' coming to put down roots then they'll stay that way. The UK now has British, English, Scottish, welsh folk from every race and religion and they are seen be the majority to belong which is great. But I can understand that a lot of people don't like to see their country change and worry about it.

from my point of view, there are anglo indians, such as my half sisters step dad, and many african countries have large arab, white and asian populations which are seen as part of the country and belonging, south africa has cape Malays which no one disputes are south African and asians that no one disputes are south African even though there is a popular worry about immigration, they are more worried about Nigerians.

A bit wobbly I think you sum up things very well in your post. That would be my take on the situation.

I think though the indigenous population of the UK has been made to feel that they cannot criticise immigrants and they are threatened with the race card if they offer any objections.

This causes resentment and makes people fed up. Mostly the British people are tolerant and would not wish any harm to anyone on an individual basis but they may feel that they are being ridden over roughshod and that the people coming may try and impose their way of life on them. I think that is the underlying fear.

in south africa they criticise immigrants, not people whose families have been settled for generations in the country and are of a different race. That is the difference.

DolomitesDonkey I suspect if the EU were to break up I would stay here in the UK - it's where I've built up my career and my pension, it's where my children were born. I'd probably naturalise, as I've said before.

I've been lucky in terms of learning English, I spent a year here when I was 10, picked it up more or less automatically and have been bilingual ever since. When I was living in Holland I had English friends who were working to learn Dutch - a real eye-opener, it's a pig of a language to learn compared to French and German.

just like when the commonwealth broke up then?

Pointysetta the results of recent local elections in Tower Hamlets have been tainted by serious allegations of postal vote rigging www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17857850

mumzy then that should be investigated, but there is still a heck of a lot of UKIP-type sentiment around and there is no excuse for it.