Contraception should be mandatory for both sexes until they have passed a fit for parenting exam: theory and practice.

[HullyEastergully]

I'm serious.

Just because you pass a test though, doesn't mean you would be any good.

I passed my driving test first time, you wouldn't necessarily want to be a passenger in my car what with the near misses and the gazing into the middle distance.

me too rogers.

I know one woman given a "chance" to parent her ELEVENTH child. That's ten lost into the system to have their lives fucked up.

Oh and that eleventh didn't work out, funnily enough.

In theory, I think it's a great idea.

I can't bear it when I read a story of someone who's had multiple children, and they each end up going into care. Maybe if you've had one or two children that you can't look after/have been taken into care because of your bad parenting skills, then you shouldn't be allowed any more.

I was flabbergasted that to adopt my dog, I had to fill in several forms, chat to several people, have someone come and inspect my house/garden. Took two weeks all together.
But when it came to my baby, I was home within 4 hours, no one even asked if I knew how to change a nappy/feed/clean/soothe etc.

wanting to have a child is selfish no matter what situation you are in

but desires, wants and what we feel we need take over

and winnicott only really applies to western ideals of parent/child relationships not to those where children are bought up in communities and all adults are central to a childs development

Good idea in theory. How do you intend to contrascept people? Given men can only use condoms or be sterilised. And in my case I can't take hormonal contraceptives because they make me murderous and can't have the coil because my periods already lead to time off work (hence why I was so keen to find a pill that worked for me).

And what would the punishment be?

We should and do put the human rights of existing people above those of the unborn child.

This proposal would infringe the human rights of actual existing people in order to protect those as-yet unborn; this is a slippery slope IMO.

Plus, abusers will pass the test. Poor parenting comes in many forms.

hmm I would usually agree except that it is totally unclear to me that the right to reproduce should exist for either existing or unborn people. In essence the born and unborn would have the same rights...they just wouldn't include reproduction.

I can't see why it is a "human right" to reproduce.

Completely fucking agree, Hully.

Excuse the unnecessary "fucking".

As it were.

More tea, Vicar?

but why should it be a given right to those who tick a few boxes

Okay so a minimal solution

Physically tie off (reversibly - even if we can't reliably do this now it won't be more than 20 years coming) everyone as or before they reach sexual maturity.

In order to get it reversed you must:

pass a psychological assessment (I know full well I would have failed this part)

pass a theory test to demonstrate you understand the nature of a childs needs both physical mental and emotional.

pass a physical assessment to demonstrate that (with any adaptations/ support necessary to overcome disability) you can look after a child.

deposit the minimum cost of raising a child to maturity for progressive release as the child requires the resources.

I like this idea.

Are you absolutely sure that giving the state powers over peoples' bodies is the way to go?

Who would people like to see as the Minister for Children, Families and Contraception, I idly wonder? Let's just make it Michael Gove. Associating him with sex will make a large proportion of people stop doing it for sure.

And what will the sanctions be for breaking the rules? We could do forced abortions like China, but it might be more effective to say miscreants have to have sex with Michael Gove?

Actually, my mother would have passed every test going - she's clever at passing tests. She has, however, no empathy, no sympathy and no people skills at all in the real world. She's a psychological bully. It would have had to have been an extremely clever test.

Dont agree of think its a good idea,i like freedom,even if it does mean occasionally some people abuse it.Once you put things like that in place where does it stop?

Also,what is a fit parent,there are so many different opinions on that,and just because someone passes a test doesnt mean they will be a good parent,there are lots of qualified drivers who are dangerous but passed a test,i got mostly As in my gcses but i was stoned for half of them and just guessed the answers and ticked random boxes,i got mostly As and some bs and cs.Tests are bollocks.

amber and ariel I think the thing is that while some tests are indeed bollocks (gcses being a prime example) it is not the case that ALL tests are bollocks.

Clearly to make this work you would need one of the not bollocks variety.

a. you can't "contracept" without consent without violating people's bodily autonomy. (Also what about nuns? them too? If not them what about people who say they are celibate but are not religious? Are they less or more credible? or is everyone universally assumed to be at it?)
b. there is no way you can meaningfully quantify what is "good parenting" such that it is subject to objective testing
c. even if you could, it is possible to pass a test and not apply these skills to day to day life
d. have you any idea how horribly disgustingly terribly persuasive the most evil abusive people are? Of course you are, if you think about it for 5 seconds it is terrifying. the wrong people would pass
e. this idea is profoundly immoral and unethical, any practical details aside
f. plus it would erode the notion of parents as people who should be supported by the wider community (which is being badly eroded already by the privatisation of the nuclear family) and promote the idea of "if you can't cope you shouldn't have had children" which is ultimately bad for kids
g. If you are serious, as you say you are, where on god's green earth do you get off?

"I can't see why it is a "human right" to reproduce."

Reproductive rights were first established as a subset of human rights at the United Nations 1968 International Conference on Human Rights. The sixteenth article of the resulting Proclamation of Teheran states, "Parents have a basic human right to determine freely and responsibly the number and the spacing of their children."

The WHO defines reproductive rights as:

Reproductive rights rest on the recognition of the basic right of all couples and individuals to decide freely and responsibly the number, spacing and timing of their children and to have the information and means to do so, and the right to attain the highest standard of sexual and reproductive health. They also include the right of all to make decisions concerning reproduction free of discrimination, coercion and violence.

what lost said.

Plus some people you can never in a million years imagine being a good parent and then it happens accidentally and changes them for the better.

Yes but that's bollocks tethers, isn't it?

Where's the correlation with population numbers, the planet, forward planning, parenting ability etc etc etc

"Associating Michael Gove with sex will make a large proportion of people stop doing it for sure.... And what will the sanctions be for breaking the rules? ... it might be more effective to say miscreants have to have sex with Michael Gove?

so let's put a stop to all those in India and china unless they are very wealthy and have western ideals on rearing of children and of course in the poor African nations too

it is what the nazi's would have done

Unworkable. I suspect that NO-ONE would ever be able to pass the test. We all have times when life doesn't go smoothly but we muddle along and paper over the cracks. Who here could genuinely put their hands up and claim parent of the year award? The thing is the vast majority of parents do a good job, sometimes only just good enough, but overall we do OK.

However if we were tested on our parenting prowess I'd bet most would fail on one aspect or another. There is no such thing as a perfect parent, or a perfect child for that matter.

And if you think 11+ tutoring is bad can you imagine the competitive cramming for parenting 101. It would overtake all other academic subjects, we would be tutored from infancy to be perfect parents. Steptford Wives would have nothing on this!