To have zero sympathy with this mother who lost her baby

[ReallyTired]

Allowing someone to circumcise a baby with a pair of sissors at home is child abuse.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-20518046

Surely the mother could have taken the child to A and E if it was bleeding so much.

I think that both women deserve to go to jail for child cruety and manslaughter.

It needs to be made a criminal offence for someone to carry out a circumcism who isn't a doctor. I also feel that circumcisms need to be carried out in a hospital enviromnent with proper pain relief and emergency facilties. Anything else is child abuse.

It is a point less waste of life what happened to this little baby.

[baublesandbaileys]

"The whole 'tiny babies don't feel pain' theory was debunked years and years ago." hmm I wish someone would tell my previous GP that!

but anyway, its not just people from abroad that can be a bit clueless about medical stuff and what is available to them. The NHS does offer a lot, but you have to already know its there and ask for it, I find the info of what you are entitled to isn't offered up, you have to somehow know it's there

[Frontpaw]

But is it is a standard things int heir community, someone would know, wouldn't they? 'Oh by they way, we don't go to Mary with the scissors anymore, the doctor will do it for you'.

And I remember the 'babies and pain' debunking when I studies psychology in the 1980s! Many believe that babies feel pain during the third trimester onwards.

[baublesandbaileys]

I dunno, I live in a community with lots of families and I didn't know that homestart existed even though I desperately needed it!

I'm near the end of my second pregnancy and have only just heard about the whole "supervisor of midwives" thing!

[CheerfulYank]

Cindy I have no idea! It's just the way things are, I guess, which of course is not a good enough reason for anything. I don't think it was done except in the Jewish community up until a relatively short time ago, but now it's a lot of people.

It may be only over 50% nationwide, but in certain areas (mine for instance) it is a much much higher percentage.

[BegoniaBampot]

I think a lot of folk in the UK think that it's only really common with Jews, Muslims and those that live in those sort of uncivilised places (like Africa and the Middle East cos you know they don't really know any better) that it's an ignorant religious based practise . I think that's why Folk get sort of high and mighty about it, use words like barbaric etc. It was a good few years ago that I found it it was common if not the norm in many western 'Christian' countries like the US, Canada, Australia and NZ. Think it became common or expected round about the fifties, they seem to feel it's better for hygiene reasons and overall sexual health.

[Frontpaw]

Doctors used to say that smoking was good for you! I dont care where it comes from or why, lobbing bits off a perfect baby is barbaric!

[baublesandbaileys]

"I dont care where it comes from or why, lobbing bits off a perfect baby is barbaric!"

y'know some people say that about giving a newborn the vit K injection!
Some people even go as far as saying that using buggies is unnatural and deprives the child
We're not all comming from the same baseline
(AM anti non medical circumcision!)

[Frontpaw]

DH is of the same opinion (and he had his bits lobbed), so I suppose he has more experience of the discussion!

It's just such a weird concept that goes waaay back before doctors and health visitors!

We don't routinely take out tonsils any more do we? Mine were taken out for no reason (I never has tonsilitus) when I was quite small (barbaric to a four year old!) and I did eventually have tonsilitus when I was about 40 (not unusual aparently), so that was a monumental waste of time and resources.

[OnwardBound]

Oh come on begonia, I would say that slicing off a baby's foreskin with scissors without anaesthetic is pretty damn barbaric!

In any culture, community, religion, belief system.

Not just the uncivilised ones [whatever that means]

[Frontpaw]

Any other part of the body (ear lobe, pinkie, toe...) And no-one would condone it. It would be assault.

[baublesandbaileys]

baby ear piercing? (I wouldn't do that either, but would that be called "barbaric?)

[BegoniaBampot]

Yes but many people use this kind of emotive language for any kind of circumcision that isn't medical whether it's done by professionals in a hospital or not.

[LookBehindYou]

This is an unbelievably tasteless and revolting thread. The parents will have to live with losing their child for the rest of their lives.

[Frontpaw]

Its a discussion. Maybe people will not talk about this to their friends and colleagues. Maybe healthcare professionals will broach the subject with pregnant women. Maybe one woman will just say 'no thanks'.

And ear piercing in small children is not to my taste either. On a scale of gential-meddling and foot binding to haircuts, it's not way up there but still...

[mathanxiety]

I have seen baby ear piercing called barbaric here.

OnwardBound, do you know what implement is used for an episiotomy?

''We live in a developed country with excellent medical facilites. Most immigrants know this otherwise they would not have come here.'
This sounds very much like the 'they come here to take advantage' attitude, and for that alone I've got to say YABU.'
I agree LadyClarice.

'Why are so many guys in the US cut? '
Because it is a simple and relatively risk free procedure done for the most part in hospitals on newborn babies and a circumcised penis is considered aesthetically pleasing plus easier to keep clean. The prevalence of circumcision depends on availability of medicare coverage for the procedure and the percentage of hispanic births tends to put a damper on it. It became the thing to do during WW2 for army-related reasons (STDs were keeping men away from the front and circumcision had some effect on STD rates - the US Army kept detailed records). Then babies were circumcised as their fathers had been circumcised and the next generations followed.

[mathanxiety]

I agree Begonia.

[unobtanium]

Dinosaur, I had that procedure, for being tongue-tied, done to me at the age of six exactly the way you described. I was told I wouldn't feel a thing, my father held me down, and the doc (whom I thought was a dentist) just went at me with the scissors. The pain and the blood, I vividly remember, but even more the shock that I had been lied to... my world changed a little bit that day. I was SURE that the doc at least KNEW it was going to hurt.

My dad let me go and I sort of fell off the doc's reclining chair/couch thing and headed for the door, crying and gagging on blood, hand over my mouth. I remember thinking my mother looked very upset.

Sympathy therefore for everyone concerned in this terrible story but maybe, considering my experience and the fact that the poor baby had absolutely no say in this, especial sympathy for the child.