To have zero sympathy with this mother who lost her baby

[ReallyTired]

Allowing someone to circumcise a baby with a pair of sissors at home is child abuse.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-20518046

Surely the mother could have taken the child to A and E if it was bleeding so much.

I think that both women deserve to go to jail for child cruety and manslaughter.

It needs to be made a criminal offence for someone to carry out a circumcism who isn't a doctor. I also feel that circumcisms need to be carried out in a hospital enviromnent with proper pain relief and emergency facilties. Anything else is child abuse.

It is a point less waste of life what happened to this little baby.

[unobtanium]

Dinosaur, I had that procedure, for being tongue-tied, done to me at the age of six exactly the way you described. I was told I wouldn't feel a thing, my father held me down, and the doc (whom I thought was a dentist) just went at me with the scissors. The pain and the blood, I vividly remember, but even more the shock that I had been lied to... my world changed a little bit that day. I was SURE that the doc at least KNEW it was going to hurt.

My dad let me go and I sort of fell off the doc's reclining chair/couch thing and headed for the door, crying and gagging on blood, hand over my mouth. I remember thinking my mother looked very upset.

Sympathy therefore for everyone concerned in this terrible story but maybe, considering my experience and the fact that the poor baby had absolutely no say in this, especial sympathy for the child.

[mathanxiety]

I agree Begonia.

[mathanxiety]

I have seen baby ear piercing called barbaric here.

OnwardBound, do you know what implement is used for an episiotomy?

''We live in a developed country with excellent medical facilites. Most immigrants know this otherwise they would not have come here.'
This sounds very much like the 'they come here to take advantage' attitude, and for that alone I've got to say YABU.'
I agree LadyClarice.

'Why are so many guys in the US cut? '
Because it is a simple and relatively risk free procedure done for the most part in hospitals on newborn babies and a circumcised penis is considered aesthetically pleasing plus easier to keep clean. The prevalence of circumcision depends on availability of medicare coverage for the procedure and the percentage of hispanic births tends to put a damper on it. It became the thing to do during WW2 for army-related reasons (STDs were keeping men away from the front and circumcision had some effect on STD rates - the US Army kept detailed records). Then babies were circumcised as their fathers had been circumcised and the next generations followed.

[Frontpaw]

Its a discussion. Maybe people will not talk about this to their friends and colleagues. Maybe healthcare professionals will broach the subject with pregnant women. Maybe one woman will just say 'no thanks'.

And ear piercing in small children is not to my taste either. On a scale of gential-meddling and foot binding to haircuts, it's not way up there but still...

[LookBehindYou]

This is an unbelievably tasteless and revolting thread. The parents will have to live with losing their child for the rest of their lives.

[BegoniaBampot]

Yes but many people use this kind of emotive language for any kind of circumcision that isn't medical whether it's done by professionals in a hospital or not.

[baublesandbaileys]

baby ear piercing? (I wouldn't do that either, but would that be called "barbaric?)

[Frontpaw]

Any other part of the body (ear lobe, pinkie, toe...) And no-one would condone it. It would be assault.

[OnwardBound]

Oh come on begonia, I would say that slicing off a baby's foreskin with scissors without anaesthetic is pretty damn barbaric!

In any culture, community, religion, belief system.

Not just the uncivilised ones [whatever that means]

[Frontpaw]

DH is of the same opinion (and he had his bits lobbed), so I suppose he has more experience of the discussion!

It's just such a weird concept that goes waaay back before doctors and health visitors!

We don't routinely take out tonsils any more do we? Mine were taken out for no reason (I never has tonsilitus) when I was quite small (barbaric to a four year old!) and I did eventually have tonsilitus when I was about 40 (not unusual aparently), so that was a monumental waste of time and resources.

[baublesandbaileys]

"I dont care where it comes from or why, lobbing bits off a perfect baby is barbaric!"

y'know some people say that about giving a newborn the vit K injection!
Some people even go as far as saying that using buggies is unnatural and deprives the child
We're not all comming from the same baseline
(AM anti non medical circumcision!)

[Frontpaw]

Doctors used to say that smoking was good for you! I dont care where it comes from or why, lobbing bits off a perfect baby is barbaric!

[BegoniaBampot]

I think a lot of folk in the UK think that it's only really common with Jews, Muslims and those that live in those sort of uncivilised places (like Africa and the Middle East cos you know they don't really know any better) that it's an ignorant religious based practise . I think that's why Folk get sort of high and mighty about it, use words like barbaric etc. It was a good few years ago that I found it it was common if not the norm in many western 'Christian' countries like the US, Canada, Australia and NZ. Think it became common or expected round about the fifties, they seem to feel it's better for hygiene reasons and overall sexual health.

[CheerfulYank]

Cindy I have no idea! It's just the way things are, I guess, which of course is not a good enough reason for anything. I don't think it was done except in the Jewish community up until a relatively short time ago, but now it's a lot of people.

It may be only over 50% nationwide, but in certain areas (mine for instance) it is a much much higher percentage.

[baublesandbaileys]

I dunno, I live in a community with lots of families and I didn't know that homestart existed even though I desperately needed it!

I'm near the end of my second pregnancy and have only just heard about the whole "supervisor of midwives" thing!

[Frontpaw]

But is it is a standard things int heir community, someone would know, wouldn't they? 'Oh by they way, we don't go to Mary with the scissors anymore, the doctor will do it for you'.

And I remember the 'babies and pain' debunking when I studies psychology in the 1980s! Many believe that babies feel pain during the third trimester onwards.

[baublesandbaileys]

"The whole 'tiny babies don't feel pain' theory was debunked years and years ago." hmm I wish someone would tell my previous GP that!

but anyway, its not just people from abroad that can be a bit clueless about medical stuff and what is available to them. The NHS does offer a lot, but you have to already know its there and ask for it, I find the info of what you are entitled to isn't offered up, you have to somehow know it's there

[baublesandbaileys]

the medical reason would be prevention of back alley circumcisions, just like abortions, a normal pregnancy isn't an illness, but NHS abortions prevent things like back street abortions plus can have a preventitive effect on mental health etc

[Queenmarigold]

NHS money shouldn't be wasted on religious beliefs, it should be for medical reasons only.

[Frontpaw]

I am assuming that the parents were going to the usual doctor/hospital/midwife checkups in the UK. Do medical folk here ask - especially where parents are from a religion/culture/region/whatever where this is common?

Didn't the law change a while ago so that spouses had to have basic english skills (or did I mishear that on the radio)?

You can be sure as shit that if I were in another country and pregnant, I would learn related vocabulary (and I am really really shit at languages) and make sure that I knew what medical help there was. I suppose, sadly, they trusted this woman (was she from their community/home country/religion?) But who the hell would let a non-doctor go at their baby with a pair of scissor and no anaesthetic?

The whole 'tiny babies don't feel pain' theory was debunked years and years ago.

I can't begin to imagine their grief. The death of a child must be the worst pain ever - but to be responsible for his pain and suffering must be a million times worse. The baby underwent a medical procedure when he did not need to and died. How could a parent live with that?

[OnwardBound]

I have sympathy for the parents of this poor baby. I am sure they did not mean for their baby to perish.

But they were cruel. They allowed someone to cut their baby's foreskin off with scissors without any anaesthetic.

Even if the baby did not die I would still think what had happened was cruel, callous, negligent and barbaric.

It is a greater tragedy that the baby died.

I think the parents deserve some sympathy but also condemnation for their cruelty, whether this was fuelled by cultural demands or ignorance is irrelevant.

As someone else said upthread, it was something done to a defenceless baby. What sort of parent does that?

[bottleofbeer]

FFS why is racism even being mentioned?

By far those most people I've had this debate with have been American, it's pretty much standard there. Although to be fair to the OP she did link the story where the family's race was mentioned so it wasn't just assumption about their race or religion.

The part about not prosecuting because it wouldn't being their baby back is rubbish, why prosecute anybody for anything? it won't undo the 'offence' committed. Yes I've got sympathy, to have a child die must be horrific, to know it was entirely preventable must make it even more unbearable but I'm sick of seeing ignorance or cultural differences as an excuse. It just screams of desperation to appear politically correct. Sometimes in people's determination to NOT be racist they're drawing lines in the sand that just highlight racial and cultural differences instead of just discussing the issue at hand.

I can still feel angry and think they were grossly negligent whilst having sympathy for them and unless I've missed something I never saw anybody saying they deserved their child to die. I think circ'ing is barbaric, pointless, cruel and maybe that's because it's not culturally normal to me but maternal instinct is universal. I can only imagine at how indoctrinated somebody must be to ever think cutting parts off their perfect child without anaesthesia is a good thing.

It should be banned, just like FGM is illegal here. Terribly sorry if it offends your sensibilities, please feel free to practice your culture in any way you see fit but no actually, we can't go along with and/or turn a blind eye to pointless, painful, potentially lethal procedures on babies who haven't chosen this for themselves and who haven't agreed for you to cut parts of THEIR bodies.

[LadyClariceCannockMonty]

'We live in a developed country with excellent medical facilites. Most immigrants know this otherwise they would not have come here.'

This sounds very much like the 'they come here to take advantage' attitude, and for that alone I've got to say YABU.

Also, you don't know the parents' circumstances. You don't know how much and what level of English the mother (and any of family) has. You don't know if she has decent connections with the community or a real awareness of the fact that the overriding cultural norm in the UK is to have procedures done in hospital. You don't know how much knowledge/confidence she has about A&E/the NHS and other available medical support.

I can't imagine the suffering this woman is going through. Do you not think she feels terrible/stupid/guilty enough already without being judged by people who know nothing about the circumstances?

[CindySherman]

Why are so many guys in the US cut?

[CheerfulYank]

That poor baby. :(

How would you feel if you lived in the US, you ask? Well...I've lived in the US for my entire life. Every single penis I've ever seen (and I've seen some was circumcised.) Wait, no, I remember two uncircumcised little boys when I worked in day care, out of hundreds. I remember being really confused when I changed one of their diapers at first...sort of a "what's wrong with...oh!" I honestly had never seen a penis uncut before.

When I found out I was having a son, I went back and forth about it. When he was born I said I wasn't sure, and the terrifyingly sure and competent and slightly patronizing pediatrician told me it was much safer for many reasons, and in my drug and pain addled state I allowed him to be whisked away and done.

He never had any ill effects and I really don't think about it much...when I do, I feel guilty and wish I had been stronger. I have been adamant to DH that any further sons we have will not be cut. However, I know this is possibly setting them up for a lifetime of locker room ridicule. :(