To have zero sympathy with this mother who lost her baby

[ReallyTired]

Allowing someone to circumcise a baby with a pair of sissors at home is child abuse.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-20518046

Surely the mother could have taken the child to A and E if it was bleeding so much.

I think that both women deserve to go to jail for child cruety and manslaughter.

It needs to be made a criminal offence for someone to carry out a circumcism who isn't a doctor. I also feel that circumcisms need to be carried out in a hospital enviromnent with proper pain relief and emergency facilties. Anything else is child abuse.

It is a point less waste of life what happened to this little baby.

crescentmoon - I think it would actually. The practice is barbaric. The culture/race/religion of those who continue the practice doesn't make it any more or less so.

This is an awful awful story - I am shocked. What a horrible situation.

Will anyone be charged? Was she a qualified nurse? I didn't read it as I don't think I could stomach it (I remember the last one on here - in Germany, wasn't it?) and that just made me feel so sad.

No-one wanted the baby dead. They all thought it was a simple procedure. Maybe that was the problem - the attitude of 'it happens to thousands of babies every day' made the nurse blase about aftercare. It would have been easy monry for her. God only knows how the parents are feeling. Im sure they would give anything to turn back the clock. They trusted someone to take care of their child. They weren't being neglectful, but if someone had come near my son with a pair of scissors, I would have run a mile, God's wrath or no. They must have had their doubts. I hope to God this story is publicised far and wide so that people are educated in the hows and whys of this procedure and can make choices and know where to go for help. Just because dad, and his dad, and his dad was 'done' with a pair of scissors, why should baby in this day and age?
I don't agree with it without medical reason. If we are 'in god's image' then why the urge to mess with it? But why, if people insist, can it not be law to be carried out in hospital or clinic with proper aftercare?

A friends son had it done in the US (religious reasons) and they made a right pig's ear of it. Poor kid ended up with an infection and was very poorly. His dad is a doctor too! I shudder to think what can happen at home, in the wrong hands with naive parents.

To be clear, I am not saying that everyone who opposes circumcision is racist. It is a practice that attracts very heated debate and I fully understand that some people find it abhorrent and are against it.

But to say, as the OP did, that "being Black or Muslim does not make you stupid" is to oversimplify the true picture of circumision in today's world, and it has an underlying tone, an innuendo which in my view clearly indicts those who practise circumcision (which the OP seems to think are Black and/or Muslim) on grounds of their culture/race. So yes, I stand by my view that the OP was racist, and yes, I judge her for that.

The WHO has found circumcision to be an efficacious means of preventing the spread of the HIV epidemic in Africa. Countries such as Nigeria, where the male circumcision rate is over 80%, have an immensely lower HIV infection rate than countries where circ is not prevalent, such Botswana and Zimbabwe. Circumcision reduces the risk of catching HIV by 60%.

The loss of any child is a tragedy. Also a tragedy is the fact that one in three pregnant women, and 40% of all babies born in Botswana, is HIV positive. Half of them die before the age of two. One may wonder where does barbarism lie, in the fact the rest of the world is allowing this to happen, or in parents deciding to circumcise to reduce that risk.

Coming back to this poor family, their mistake was to trust a nurse to perform a circumcision. It is a mistake they will regret all their life. I feel very very sad for them. The OP's abuse is nothing short of shocking.

One may wonder where does barbarism lie, in the fact the rest of the world is allowing this to happen

And you criticise OP for oversimplifying?

I come from a culture where male circumcision is the norm. I assumed that my DS would be circumcised - it's what we do, and I wanted him to look like the men in his family. Then I looked into it and was bloody horrified. I absolutely refused, much to the anger of my father.

As a parent we have the responsibility To make informed decisions for our kinds, not blindly follow culture, tradition or religion.

MrsDeVere - agreed, circumcision is only one aspect of the fight against aids in Africa, and a controversial one at that. And I also agree that babies who are born with HIV may not benefit from circumcision. It's a long game - in the sense that infant circumcision is for the benefit of future generations, not just that of the circumcised child himself. It's like a form of vaccination, and interestingly, it is about as effective as the bcg vaccine is against TB, which is not generally viewed as controversial.

In an ideal world, condoms would be available everywhere and African women would be empowered. However, the real world is different, and most epidemiologists seem to think that there is a proven link between male circ and the spread of HIV. It is but one measure, I am not at all saying it is a panacea, but a 60% reduction of the risk is viewed as significant enough to warrant massive circumcision drives in Zimbabwe, Kenya and other countries, even taking the costs into account.

Walter, would you care to expand on why you think I am oversimplifying?

MrsDeVere, that's like saying if this was a perfect world then there would be no more HIV. It is absolutely true but a long shot nonetheless.

Adult circumcision is promoted as a means of reducing risk of contracting HIV in Africa and so is condom use. Research into a cure is ongoing. While we wait for an end to the sort of world where women are exploited and abused it behoves humanity to use whatever comes to hand since the disease cannot be cured and can be passed on to babies.

Why did the OP say 'blacks or muslims are not stupid'? What kind of fucking patronising colonialist bullshit is that?

I didn't read it like that. I can't find the comment now but I thought it was a response to posters who were suggesting that the parents couldn't have been expected to know any better because of their 'cultural differences'. She was actually doing the opposite of patronising them. Perhaps I've got it wrong though, if anyone knows what time the post was?

Primafacie I think statements that imply we are the barbaric ones because circumcision stops the spread of HIV is massively oversimplifying, yes.

The HIV epidemic has a lot to do with ignorance and lack of education. It's like the free condom debate in the church a few years ago. Yes, these procedures stop the spread but this problem needs to be worked at from the roots, ie giving people a sexual education.

And it's irrelevant to this particular story anyway. If the thread becomes a discussion on the HIV epidemic in Africa then fair enough. But it's taken a nasty turn towards accusations of racism.

This is not about the big western bullies picking on "blacks or muslims" it's about a horrific tragedy which could have been prevented because the procedure was completely unnecessary.

Forgive my ignorance, and you seem much more educated in the field than I, but the threat of HIV was no bigger to this baby than any other born to healthy parents in the UK was it?

YABU to have no sympathy for a mother who was doing what she believed was the best for her baby.

The issue is with the nurse who performed the procedure and the mother who didn't make an informed decision.

Any community nurse would visit and monitor a patient post procedure and would give clear instructions as to the monitoring of blood loss and for infection.

So if this nurse performed a circumcision then failed to closely monitor this child knowing that parents are not medical professionals and often pretty lacking in knowledge about the specifics of post surgical care, then she/he is negligent.

The babies deterioration would have been picked up with proper nursing post surgical care.

It's almost impossible not to have a strong emotional perspective on circumcision, whether it be for or against.

A lot of people who are against circumcision associate it with agony and cruelty and say that it is barbaric. Certainly, there ARE ways that a baby can be circumcised which are is cruel and barbaric, especially if no anaesthesia is given.

However, if you ever wanted to see how a circumcision can be performed, with no real distress for the baby, and a neat and tidy result, this short clip might be worth watching:

Some people will always opt to circumcise their children for cultural or religious reasons. Making it illegal will just drive it undergound and create more cases like this. If botched home circumcisions are a problem, the NHS needs to publicise the fact that safe, free circumcision is available for cultural or religious reasons. Likewise prosecuting the parents may just mean that more children suffer, because other parents will be less likely to bring their children to hospital after complications with home circumcisions.

Circumcision is always barbaric. The procedure itself is horrific, and the long term results are devastating.

Why is there an uproar when we think about female gentile mutilation, and yet think its perfectly okay to do it to boys?

How sad, I can't open up the link, but I'm sat here fighting tears. That poor poor baby

Oh god, how appalling. I do feel sorry for the baby's parents for their loss but how awful that such a thing could happen.

Why do people think HIV is just an African problem? HIV is rampaging through Russia, you know a western country not so different to our own.

Even in the news today, apparently 20,000 people in the UK are living with HIV and do not know... Or I guess ignorance is bliss to the typical MC mumsnetter and you assume that 20,000 are gay or not from the UK, could never be a average heterosexual that will sleep with you or one of your family.

Circumcision is a WHO recommended procedure in the fight against HIV, who knows if that could one day be relevant to UK (the country with the highest rate of teenage pregnancy in Europe, so much for sex ed and condoms eh?).

1. What an awful, awful thread title. Just...hideous.

1. I'm Jewish. Most boys I know (not mine) have been circumcised with NO ill effects at all. That's by hospitals and rabbis.

1. However, I do err on the side of 'it's barbaric' and I would never put my own child through it. Luckily I am a non-practising, atheist Jew (yes that does make sense!).

Babies who make no noise or apparent distress whilst being cut ate going into shock. It doesn't mean they don't suffer.

I think you are bu op & so are a lot of people on this thread. It is not just 'black or Muslims' that curcumcise. America & Canada have high rates too. Don't generalise. Aids is a genuine concern to people who come from countries with high rates. I read today that 2million people this year alone have been newly diagnosed. Circumcision is done by parents with good intentions, that may not have a choice due to cultural pressures.

I couldn't imagine being so cold and callous that I would not feel sympathy for someone who appears to have lost a child through ignorance.
YABU.