To have zero sympathy with this mother who lost her baby

[ReallyTired]

Allowing someone to circumcise a baby with a pair of sissors at home is child abuse.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-20518046

Surely the mother could have taken the child to A and E if it was bleeding so much.

I think that both women deserve to go to jail for child cruety and manslaughter.

It needs to be made a criminal offence for someone to carry out a circumcism who isn't a doctor. I also feel that circumcisms need to be carried out in a hospital enviromnent with proper pain relief and emergency facilties. Anything else is child abuse.

It is a point less waste of life what happened to this little baby.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

YABU. Whatever happened, however irresponsible or stupid anyone has been, let's not be so disgustingly devoid of humanity as to crow over a grieving mother and a dead baby....

[Enigmosaurus]

Horrible thread title. I'd hate to be so callous and cold-hearted that I could not find some sympathy within me for a mother who has tried to do what she believed was the right thing by her baby and had the very worst thing possible happen.

[HullyEastergully]

FFS all round

[waltermittymistletoe]

Spero I don't think I can dredge up any sympathy for the murderers of Baby P. That's beyond my capacity for sympathy!

But, OP, these parents didn't systematically abuse their child. I think the practise is truly awful but the blame for the procedure lies with that nurse.

I've already said though, I don't understand why they didn't get medical help after the fact. But perhaps they are thinking that too and I wouldn't want to have to deal with that as the parent responsible. Would you?

[EugenesAxe]

This is hideous, but she didn't go into it thinking she would kill her baby. Therefore, I have sympathy for her. I agree with expat's comments in particular.

[OxfordBags]

If you have no sympathy for a mother (or father) who has lost their child, then you have no place to be talking about this issue in the first place, OP. You've lost any moral highground on the matter with that sort of disgusting attitude. You don't try to demonstrate sympathy for the child by saying you have none for the mother - that just shows you up as the sort of person who doesn't actually feel or understand genuine sympathy. That poor woman thought she was doing was was right for her child, however much we might not agree, and she thought only of the benefits for him (and I say that as someone who has campaigned against FGM). That anything bad would happen to him would've been the last thing on her mind. She will have to live with this for the rest of her life and my heart goes out to her.

Your post smacks of grief tourism to me.

It is also disgusting to compare those parents to the killers of Baby P. The two situations are poles apart.

I have sympathy for the children that became the adults whose actions led to the death of Baby P. What must've happened to them in childhood to make them like that is heartbreaking and shames us as a society.

[higgle]

Of course they need to be prosecuted, we can't bring back the child but it will bring publicity and deter others from this barbaric abuse of children.

[Spero]

As the Barnados bloke said, had Peter been allowed to live he would most likely have turned into a pretty horrible adult and done to his children what was done to him ... And then we would all be haying for his blood too.

All these armchair warriors, spitting out your hatred (interestingly mainly on the mother, as if she conceived quite immaculately) what do you actually DO in your day to day lives to make it better for children who are abused and suffering now? Or is it just easier to spout this kind of stuff on the Internet, make you feel all important because you care about the kiddies.

[DinosaursOnAnAdventCalender]

Poor baby, and of course I feel sympathy for parents who have lost their child.

I do think though circumcision (apart from medical reasons) is cruel and barbaric and I think it should be a criminal offence to carry a circumcision out (with sissors and olive oil!?) I don't know how feasible that it (would it be assault?) and how it would work in practice but it just makes me feel so sad that there are little babies being put through this for appearance or culture.

As for the parents being prosecuted? I don't know. I don't know enough about the symptoms of blood loss in a baby or normal 'healing' after a diy circumcision to pass comment on whether or not they were negligent. I am sure they will be punishing themselves for the test of their lives though.

As the mother of three boys I couldn't stand the thought of anyone hurting them. Not a comparison directly but ds3 was born with quite severe tongue tie and we took him to see a specialist. She explained that they would cut the tie (tied in two places) but they wouldn't use anaesthetic and it would be done using something that looked suspiciously like sissors. I believed that having it cut was best in the long term, for feeding, speech etc. But, the thought of someone cutting my 10 week old baby with no pain relief etc was disgusting to me. I was really conflicted. According to the doctor, nerve endings weren't developed, pain would be minimal, over in seconds etc. In the end I decided it was best in the long term to have it done. My ex had to hold him down and my poor baby screamed. It made me literally vomit in the doctors office and I would happily have cut out her tongue if I had gotten hold of the sissors. It bled, for quite a while - I had no idea and not was I told about monitoring blood loss in a baby. He did heal quickly and has no problems now. It's me that can still see it in my mind. I've rambled on but I suppose for some mothers if they truly believe that circumcision is the best thing for their boys long term (I'm not sure of the reasoning behind it - purity? cleanliness? Acceptance?) then I can see why they would bite their lip and just try and get it over with. I don't agree with it, but I can see a little of the thought behind it.

[JenaiMathis]

You sound delightful, op.

[ClippedPhoenix]

My friend married a jewish man, she INSISTED that their childrens circumcisions were carried out in hospital. She had a massive fight on her hands with him about this though.

Another friend married a West Indian man, their boys were circumcised on the NHS.

My son was circumcised due to his foreskin being too tight.

Whilst I have no problem with circumcision for cultural reasons, these barbaric rituals must be stopped.

In saying that my heart goes out to that poor woman.

[quirrelquarrel]

To be honest, for all your concern about this poor baby, I wouldn't want you to look after my child (if I had one). What does it take for you to dole out some sympathy and sensitivity? What would you teach a child with that sort of attitude? Direct this concern a little closer to home as well as condemning a woman whose life will never be the same again because of this tragedy, won't you.

[moajab]

I do feel sympathy for the parents, but also anger at them and their culture which encouraged this procedure. But most of all I just feel very sad for a little boy who should have had his whole life ahead of him. RIP little one.

[atacareercrossroads]

I have a tiny, and I do mean very tiny, amount of sympathy for the parents, only in that they have lost a child.

IMO they are complicit in this and they should also be up for manslaughter.

I am saving most of my sympathy for the poor boy who was put in this situation by the two people who should want to protect him the most, but failed.

[McChristmasPants2012]

I have sympathy for any parent that has lost a child, even baby peter mother.

With baby Peter it is a different remorse as it mixed with hatred, I feel sorry that she didn't see what a lovely little boy she had and she didn't get help or put him up for adoption.

[CaroleService]

What Erik said about the father.

I guess the baby was wearing a nappy, which hid the bleeding.

I feel very sorry for the parents, anyway. I don't think there's anything to be gained by sending them to prison, especially if they have other children - they're not likely to do this again, after all.

[thebody]

Dinosaurs.. That must have been literally soul destroying for you.

I just don't understand any culture or religion that dreams up such barbaric cruelty.. Each and every religion has blood on their hands.

Why can't 'culture' just be gentle and kind?

Why is so much of it cruel and harsh to mainly women and defenceless children. That's what I can't get past here.

I can't imagine inflicting pain on my children. Just because its 'always been done' doesn't make it right.

My dd is recovering painfully from a crash and I absolutely hate the driver who caused it. I mean that.

I know we in the west have a totally different culture but we don't have different pain thresholds or ability to empathise.

Show me any adult who has been circumspect willingly as an adult and then I will totally believe in this culture crap.

The parents and nurse should be charged with manslaughter I think as they caused the death of this baby. That's the law. Just as the man who caused dds injuries and a death is being charged with this.

We need to send out a message that this is barbaric and unacceptable.
Of course it won't bring this poor baby back but he deserves justice.

[Alisvolatpropiis]

How can you not feel sorry for the mother and father? Through one misguided action their baby is dead.

Yes it was stupid and ignorant of the services available but they didn't set out to kill him.

I feel awfully sorry for them both. They have to live with that mistake for the rest of their lives. I hope the "nurse" who did it is arrested and prosecuted.

[GrimmaTheNome]

The 'nurse' who performed this should be prosecuted. At very least gross negligence.

I feel very sorry for the parents - that this has happened to their child, that they were persuaded through culture/religion that it was a good thing to do, that they were ignorant of the proper medical options.

There is perhaps something constructive that could come from this tragedy...presumably the family had some contact with healthcare professionals ante/post natally. Shouldn't there be information provided on the issues and options for circumcision (medical facts as to whether its necessary; availability; dangers of DIY) - I'm presuming there isn't at the moment(I don't have boys)

[Primafacie]

YABVU, unkind and cruel.

My friend (white, British born, educated professional) lost a son following a lung infection that got misdiagnosed as croup by the on-call gp. The baby died in his sleep the same night. Was she guilty of manslaughter? Or does your prejudice to trusting nhs staff only extends to blacks and muslims?

There are plenty of documented medical reasons to have circumcision performed on a newborn. You clearly know nothing about them. Your post has made me very angry in a very personal way. Parents who choose to circumcise are not satanic, evil or even just stupid parents - they act on advice and choose what is best for them. Your ignorance is staggering and makes me question your own ability as a parent.

[Primafacie]

Oh and by the way - one third of men worldwide are circumcised. Over half of all Americans and Canadians are, as well as Muslims, Jewish, South Korean men and a fair chunk in India and loads in Africa. You are spouting racist bullocks.

[SantasStrapOn]

Of course I sympathise with the parents. They have lost their child, how could you not feel sympathy and pity for them.

Save your anger for the people who perpetrate these crimes. The people like the person who performed the circumcision, the people who prey on parents like these..

[baublesandbaileys]

I feel sorry for the parents!

they DID seek help from a nurse when the bleeding continued, when a HCP tells you that something is normal you do doubt yourself!

the nurse is the guilty one

I don't agree with circumcision for non medical reasons, and I've only ever been with circumcised men due to comming from somewhere where it was routinely done in infancy for men my age and as such prefer them as non cut penises look odd to me! I still wish it didn't happen for non medical reasons but that doesn't mean that I think these parents deserved this at all

[Primafacie]

And by the by, if something like this happened in North America, the parents would sue the nurse and probably win. So go on, cross the next line and say that all American and Canadian parents are child abusers. I will be here, waiting for you. Because what you are doing is despicable, racist and plain wrong. Would it really kill you to have a minimum of empathy? These parents have lot a child. Do you have the remotest idea of what their grief is like? Or maybe you don't think this mum is here tonight, reading your posts, because she doesn't belong to your society... Shame on you OP.

[waltermittymistletoe]

Primafacie don't make this thread something it's not intended to be.

Everyone has said OP is BU to have a complete lack of sympathy but she is in no way the only one thinking that this practise is WRONG.

I didn't know the couple's race when I said that I disagreed with it. It has nothing to do with race. I'm pretty sure OP would have been outraged had the couple been white British.

Don't assume people don't know what they're talking about just because they don't agree with this.

You question the OP's ability as a parent? Really? You don't think that's being just as judgemental?!