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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to find this slightly odd behaviour from atheist friends?

434 replies

handsandknees · 26/11/2012 10:56

I am an Evangelical Christian. People who know me well know that. I am happy to talk about it if people want to, but I don't go on about it.

Last Easter one of my friends posted a long status on facebook basically ranting against the Christian Easter message and saying that she didn't want or need Jesus to have died for her, thank you very much. Up to her what she writes of course, but the tone was very aggressive and I wondered why. I didn't comment but later she sent me a personal message asking me what I thought of her post.

Then this week another friend posted a photo on my wall which said "Proud to say I'm an atheist". I haven't responded but just wondering why would someone do this? I am not offended just find it a bit strange.

Why do you think they would do this?

OP posts:
exoticfruits · 29/11/2012 17:41

Sorry- I thought, like SGB, that you had sorted out than anyone was totally ridiculous to have a faith in God.

GrimmaTheNome · 29/11/2012 17:49

Well I am as sure that there is no god as I am sure that gravity exists or the sun will rise tomorrow. Why am I expected to add caveats to god not existing when I'm not to gravity or the sun rising

Gravity and the behaviour of the sun are subject to the scientific method. The existence of god isn't - its neither provable nor unprovable. (But, as I've said earlier, there is no onus on non-believers in god, the IPU, whatever to disprove those entities). There is a philosophical difference.

seeker · 29/11/2012 18:02

Well, there is a slight chance the sun will not come up tomorrow-despite all the evidence to the contrary. There is, I suppose. - slight chance that god might exist- despite all the evidence to the contrary. Because by any objective measure- based on stuff like "does he do what he says he's going to do" god is provably non existent,

exoticfruits · 29/11/2012 18:12

They are just entirely different. There is no evidence of God, either way. It is purely faith.

seeker · 29/11/2012 18:16

There is loads of evidence that there is no God! It takes faith to believe in him- not believing is the logical, rational position based on the facts.

exoticfruits · 29/11/2012 18:17

Would you like to give me definite proof?

exoticfruits · 29/11/2012 18:19

That is proof that there is no God.

seeker · 29/11/2012 18:23

I can't give you definite proof- you can't prove a negative. But the complete lack of any noticeable activity on his part for the past 2000 years is pretty compelling.....

exoticfruits · 29/11/2012 18:27

I am open minded- as I said I don't know what I might think next year or 10 years time. I wouldn't expect noticeable activity. If I can be given proof that there is no God I will change my mind.

GrimmaTheNome · 29/11/2012 19:24

If I can be given proof that there is no God I will change my mind.
As seeker said, you can't prove a negative. The onus is on believers to prove that their version of God does exist.

Seeker - there are indications that particular types of gods don't exist - omnipotent, omniscient and loving all at the same time for instance. If you consider a 'light the blue touchpaper and stand back' deist sort of god - well, that sort there's not much to get hold of either way. But few people actually believe in that sort of non-interventionist god so its probably not too important in real life....only on internet discussion forums Grin

exoticfruits · 29/11/2012 19:29

I don't see why the onus is on anyone to prove anything! We are all different- it would be a boring old world if everyone had the same information and came to the same conclusion. Variety is the spice of life. The one person who would make me want to explore religion would be SGB- she always makes it sound so exciting!

exoticfruits · 29/11/2012 19:32

I can't see why other people's ideas upset people. It is a free country to say what you like and even ones who are not free can't stop people thinking what they like.
At the end people will either find out or you are just dead and that is it so it won't bother you!

GrimmaTheNome · 29/11/2012 19:58

I don't see why the onus is on anyone to prove anything
philosophically it is. Teapots and unicorns Grin

I can't see why other people's ideas upset people. It is a free country to say what you like
Peoples ideas - no problem. Words - no problem (though some people do get awfully upset by SGB!).

Its when the ideas and words result in actions, laws, cultures which impinge on other people's lives that there is a problem. And that's what organised religions (along with dogmatic political ideologies) are rather good at doing.

CheerfulYank · 29/11/2012 20:10
is the debate between Ross Douthat and Bill Maher where the "idea" thing is mentioned.

I do not agree with the title of the video btw ("Bill Maher loses"), it's just an interesting talk, I think. :)

exoticfruits · 29/11/2012 20:40

I'm not upset by SGB - just surmise that she had a religious parent to get such an extreme reaction.

GrimmaTheNome · 29/11/2012 21:06

By 'some' I didn't mean you, exotic. Not sure, I think she can be - shall we say, forthright? - on a range of different issues so it may just be that her style is to call a spade a bloody shovel.

exoticfruits · 29/11/2012 21:50

On other subjects she is fine- just vitriolic when it comes to religion. Grin

FrankH · 29/11/2012 22:45

Himalaya
I am replying to you because you seem to be a genuine seeker, someone who has a mind open to ideas which might consider things not in your present philosophy. Being "open" does not mean of course that you have to accept these ideas - you are perfectly free to accept or reject them. Being open-minded doesn't mean being blank-minded.

One thing to say straight away. What any of us, whatever our viewpoint, understands of reality is probably only a very small proportion of the totality of what exists. Anyone who claims otherwise - such as those who claim to know exactly what God thinks about all sorts of political and social issues - is suspect in my eyes. Even if what I believe about life, the universe and everything, is totally correct - highly unlikely, as I'm an ordinary fallible human! - it would probably still not say very much set against the undoubted vastness and complexity of existence as a whole.

Starting at the beginning, the only thing you and I can be absolutely sure of, is our own existence [I gather there is at least one philosopher who questions even this - but that's surely taking scepticism too far!].

However, such a view which I have just described is clearly held by no sane person. We live, quite correctly, as if the evidence of our senses is largely correct. And therefore I accept that you exist, and you can accept that I do - although I accept that the existence of the Internet has increased the possibility of false identities.

Beyond the evidence of our senses, we can all agree on the objective findings of Science. Hence we can all agree e.g. on the existence of Gravity, the heliocentric Solar System, and so on. When it comes to things concerning the past, such as Evolution, there is a problem (for some) that unless we can time travel to the past we can't see it happening. However, I would argue that Evolution is proven as much as any such theory can be, not just by the wealth of fossil evidence, but also because evolution through natural selection (as proposed by Darwin and, often forgotten, Wallace) is a logical outcome of what we know about the way life works.

It is when we go beyond Science that the problems begin.

[At this point, I'll have to cut short - I'm listening to "Newsnight". I'll resume later]

SolidGoldYESBROKEMYSPACEBAR · 29/11/2012 22:48

ExoticFruits: You often say that my statements 'make religion sound exciting' which I find bewildering. What's so exciting about racism, misogny, homophobia and genocide?

seeker · 29/11/2012 22:52

I think anyone should be free to believe whatever they want. Just so long as it doesn't impinge on other people. I also think that people should be free to smoke behind their own closed doors if they want to. However they are not free to drift their smoke, or their religion, over other people whether they want to or not. Or to claim special privileged or positions in public life for their religion- or their smoke. nobody is saying that you can't have a personal religion. But in my experience, that's not all people want.

GrimmaTheNome · 29/11/2012 23:42

It is when we go beyond Science that the problems begin.

is there any reality to anything that 'goes beyond science'?

FrankH · 30/11/2012 00:13

Himalaya - to continue.

[Actually my last statement wasn't absolutely accurate - there are problems even before we get to the Science/Religion question - but those aren't the problems which concern this thread]

You wrote "Frank H - how do you reconcile your scientific knowledge that life evolved through a purposeless process, with human beings having no particularly special status with your religious belief (presumably, I'm guessing...) that humans are a special kind of organism, made in gods image, with a purpose, and a soul and a special relationship with the creator?"

and "Thanks Frank - I know there are religious scientists, I am just bemused by how they manage to reconcile the two views of the same reality .... "

You can have "two views" of the same reality - in fact that's quite a good description of my viewpoint.

When I teach Evolution, I teach it in terms of a process driven by purely scientifically determined factors such as, especially, natural selection. This is a scientific description, and actually says nothing about whether or not there is an ultimate "purpose". It is quite possible to believe that while the whole of ultimate reality might have a purpose, it doesn't necessarily show up in proximate processes. [I make it quite clear to students that if they answer questions using arguments such as "The Bible/Koran/other scriptural text says/doesnt say X", they will receive no marks for it, as they don't constitute a scientific argument.]

An over-simplification, but I believe that, except proximately, Science only answers questions of "How?". It doesn't, and cannot, answer ultimate questions of "Why?", or, indeed, whether or not there is an ultimate question "Why?".

[What I personally believe is that the whole of reality is ultimately due to a God of Love. I do not think of God as an old man with a beard, in fact I don't think of God in these sort of physical terms at all.]

As for the position of humans, I see the "God's image" statement as connected with the fact that, unless we are psychopaths, we all actually believe that there is a moral dimension to our existence. We may differ on exactly what is right or wrong, but we accept that right and wrong exist. In my opinion a number of other subjects are also involved, such as Love (which I believe is the most important factor in what is right).

This isn't the place for a theological lecture. However I hope that, even if you don't agree with me, you can see how I, and many other scientists, can be Christians (or Jews/Moslems/Buddhists etc.), without feeling any contradiction.

It may surprise many people to learn that some of the earliest supporters of Darwin, especially in the USA, were evangelical Christians.

And today, evolutionary biologists include many who are "believers", and many others, such as the late Stephen J. Gould, who, while not "religious", certainly wouldn't go along with the militantly Atheist view of Richard Dawkins and his supporters. The same remarks apply to scientists as a whole.

I agree absolutely that people of any particular "faith" have no right to impose their views and practices on others.

FrankH · 30/11/2012 00:32

Grimma
"is there any reality to anything that 'goes beyond science'?

That's the whole issue, isn't it?

There's also the problem as to how you define "Science" - you may know that many Philosophers of Science find it not a clear-cut matter.

However for argument's sake, I will accept Richard Dawkins' view on what constitutes "Science", a very "purist" view.

If that is so, I believe that there is a much greater reality which goes beyond this variety of Science. More to the point, there is no way in which this sort of Science could ever reach these other dimensions, whether or not they exist.

There is always the problem that when you have reached the boundaries of what is observable scientifically, you cannot be sure that there isn't something beyond. Further scientific progress may allow you to break through that boundary, but you will eventually come across another boundary - and the same problem arises again.

Brycie · 30/11/2012 00:38

Can I just respond to the OP? It's really trendy at the moment to be an atheist. Not just, not bothered or not interested but actively an atheist, among young people. I think there's a lot of stuff about on reddit, they all take the mickey out of Mitt Romney for his mormonism, and htere's a lot of memes and stuff. Don't take it personally! It's the new black.

ps fair enough to them taking the p out of Romney though

seeker · 30/11/2012 06:13

"Can I just respond to the OP? It's really trendy at the moment to be an atheist."
Yep. We're all just jumping on the atheist band wagon. Don't worry, we'll all be back to normal Christianity as soon as the next trendy thing comes along. Space hoppers, probably. Or draw something.