To not understand they UK class war???

[Notcontent]

Right, so I was just reading the "not fitting in on MN" thread and that got me thinking about something i have thought about many times: why is it that there seems to be a bit of a class war - the whole work class versus middle class thing. I just don't understand it. I have lived in the UK for quite some time, but I just don't get it.

Why, for example, it is seen as a middle class thing for children to eat vegetables?? This is actually very personal to me, because I have just discovered that my dd is being picked on at school about the contents of her lunch box. Now it seems I know why.

afterdinner just because somehting has a positive outcome doesn't mean it isn't part of a class driven indicator.

if I don't live in the WC community, if I'm now highly educated, does that make it disingenuous to identify as WC?

My mum is university educated, speaks with a neutral southern MC accent, reads the guardian, has employed cleaners, has lots of books (while skiving off school as a teen and hiding in my room, I once overheard the cleaners talking contemptuously about how "they always have books everywhere, don't they, these people?"), is vegetarian, goes to the theatre and has an allotment.

There's nothing about her that isn't middle class, to most people's eyes. But she still self identifies as working class as. to her, middle class people speak in clipped BBC English, were privately educated, read the Times or telegraph, go horse riding, play tennis or go sailing, are proud to have messy homes (as a class signifier) and are effortlessly self confident. This is what middle class meant when she was growing up.

I was acused of being chavvy because I like baked beans. I didn't even realise that baked beans had anything to do with class credentials before that. Any beans are a good thing from my point of view.

Hmmm. I know what you mean, wordfactory. But I still don't like it. It's like you think MC concerns with education etc are an indulgence that they couldn't afford if they had real life problems to deal with?

My own MC upbringing has been as full of hardship, drama, health problems and bereavement etc as anybody else. My mum was as knackered as yours, is what I mean.

And now I'm a knackered mother too. But my son's education, diet etc are still paramount, through all the ups and downs.

The way I identify whether someone sees themselves as MC or not is their reaction to where I live. No reaction, neutral reaction, positive reaction or "my friend/mum/aunt lives there" = working class. Raised eyebrows, disgusted look, surprised look, (that someone like me lives there), negative comment = middle class. So far in the years I've lived in England reactions to where people live is the most reliable indicator of the class a person identifies with.

I don't identify with a class because I didn't grow up with it so it's not in my psyche IYSWIM.

Yes, I can also relate to having a family life fraught with health problems. My mother was very ill, and I had a promising career ahead of me until I developed severe health problems of my own. I'm not sure where I fit into the whole class picture, I don't have much money because the sort of work I can do is limited, but I'm quite young and I own my home outright. It's a bit of a grey area. It can be funny to joke about the whole class issue, but honestly, most people don't fit into neat stereotypes. Although some do seem to generally still apply.

My mum is a non-British anthropologist. She always says that the British class system is fascinating subject of study - and that it's usually very easy to 'sort' people into broad tribes, although they are more nuanced than 'working class', 'middle class' and 'upper class' (and presumably, looking at 19th century novels, always have been?).

I also suspect it's easier to deny the idea that class limits your opportunities and options if you are from a social grouping traditionally perceived to have higher social status.

morris not an indulgence but sometimes a luxury.

In the past working class families suffered much worse hardship than MC families. Pretending otherwise is patronising.

Now the differences between much of the WC and the MC have lessened. Much of the MC is downwardly mobile. They have far more in common than the MC like to admit. So those indicators become all the more important, some of which actually make the lives of MC parents much much harder.

Very interesting posts, WordFactory and Morris Zapp (what class affiliations can we spot in both your user names? )

I wasn't talking about in the past, just my own 1970s childhood.

There isn't a free pass to a comfortable lifestyle for anybody unless they have inherited wealth.

My parents had books, plants, joss sticks, protest marches... and not a pot to piss in.

I know that the classes have lots in common, why do you think its the MC who don't want to admit it? The only person on this thread who hasn't wanted to admit it is you, as you said openly a few posts back.

I think I have the most MC username on MN :) Somebody else said it, not me.

I think trifles are more of an indicator of your class. Jelly is not a permitted ingredient in a working class trifle

So true OwlLady!

Jelly? But trifle needs jelly, it's a key ingredient.

Hundreds and thousands, now they are never allowed. All wrong.

You can't have trifle without jelly! I agree on hundreds and thousands, curled chocolate is much better.

Trifle transcends class if you stick enough booze in it!

no, no, no jelly

it's a tin of fruit cocktail, some sponge fingers spread with jam, covered in sherry, birds custard and a whipped up tin of cream, sprinkled with hundreds and thousands, yes those things

This is the makings of a working class trifle

No owl even tesco value trifle has jelly!

They have far more in common than the MC like to admit. So those indicators become all the more important, some of which actually make the lives of MC parents much much harder.

Eco bling is a big part of this. I know many knackered MC women who are spending every spare minute dealing with washable nappies etc. Insisting on cooking from scratch even when ill and exhausted.

I think that breastfeeding is partly so emotive because it is such a class signifier.

"Because butternut squash is expensive! Seriously expensive."

I get them at the local supermarket for £1 each!! Not expensive at all!

i think there is probably an element of inherited sense of privelege/entitlement

For example, WC men couldnt vote until 1920 (?). That isnt that long ago in terms of emotional span...i met my Great grandad

I suppose things have changed with respect to food storage and what working class people eat, but when I was a child tinned food was very popular. Tinned ham was a treat brought out of Gran's pantry to have with buttered sunblest bread and you either liked the jelly on it or you didn't, I didn't my sister did. When I first started living with my husband I suggested we have spag bol for tea and he thought I meant the tinned stuff made by Heinz

We are the unusual breastfeeding working class family as we all did it, Gran, aunts, mum, me etc

Other way round here. We're all lactivist types until Morris the loser fucked it all up and broke out the aptamil at 11 weeks.

Yes, my class identity played a part in my guilt. It was partly why I lost the plot and ended up on anti depressants.

But I never put aptamil in a trifle. One must maintain standards.