To not understand they UK class war???

[Notcontent]

Right, so I was just reading the "not fitting in on MN" thread and that got me thinking about something i have thought about many times: why is it that there seems to be a bit of a class war - the whole work class versus middle class thing. I just don't understand it. I have lived in the UK for quite some time, but I just don't get it.

Why, for example, it is seen as a middle class thing for children to eat vegetables?? This is actually very personal to me, because I have just discovered that my dd is being picked on at school about the contents of her lunch box. Now it seems I know why.

[InNeedOfBrandy]

My mum though is middle class but broke middle class. She was a library and veg mum and would harp on about our great great grandad was a duke in Germany.

[Notcontent]

This thread hasn't gone quite the way I thought it would... It's just like all the other threads. What I don't understand is why people deride each other's choices so much.

I am Australian so I guess that's the problem. In Australia there are big differences in people's incomes, and this difference is probably much greater now, than, say 20 years ago. But there isn't such a mind set about being of a particular class and this obsession with deriding everything as being too "posh".

[OwlLady]

the thing that gets me is that almost everyone thinks they are middle class these days and have somehow created an illusion that the working classes don't work

ime anyway"

[bakingaddict]

Class is a funny old thing, it's just a way of trying to pigeon hole people and getting them to conform to some notion of what it is to belong to that tribe.

I have well educated friends, having gone to top uni's instead of my former poly one, renting with no real prospect of buying and earning less than myself but I view them as MC and identify myself as WC

[MorrisZapp]

Nobody on this thread seems to want to be MC. Ime, these threads come up pretty regularly, and are usually filled with people who think they are a hilarious anomaly.

'I went to Oxford but my kids eat processed ham. DH is an accountant but has sky sports. What class are we then?' etc.

I'm middle class. It's fine.

[Alisvolatpropiis]

*OwlLady, I have had to explain to my lovely,if socially unaware, friend what the definition of working class is because she was under the misguided belief that they didn't work. Honestly,the clue is in the title!

She was also moderately offended when I pointed out her family were working class,as are mine by and large. I was a bit taken aback by that in all honesty.

[OwlLady]

Alisvolatpropiis, I experience the same tbh. My parents were an electrician and a cook, they owned their own house, neither were degree educated, we went to the local school. My husband was brought up in council housing, dad was a miner, mum worked in a factory. My husband is a highly skilled engineer has two degrees, I have a degree but do not work in paid employment. We both still think we are working class even though socio economically we are middle

[OwlLady]

we all eat normal food btw, including fruit and vegetables and the odd bit of frozen crap thrown in

[flow4]

I don't think that's true, Morris. I see several people here who are comfortable with whatever class they see themselves as being - working or middle.

I'm middle class. It would be ridiculous for me to pretend or protest otherwise. But IMO, it's my background, education and values that make me so, not my income or even my profession.

And generally, I find myself identifying with people who are at ease with their identities, whatever those are. It's insecurity and pretension that I find unappealing... :)

[takataka]

Hmm OP how did you expect the thread to go?

People derides each others choices for all sorts of reasons. And kids can be particularly horrid to each other. If your dc is being picked on about his veggie sticks then the school should be stepping in.

WCes in England were oppressed for centuries and royally fucked over by Margaret Thatcher. On this thread WC have been referred to as vulgar and Chavs. For me 'too posh' is fun sometimes but generally its a tedious social construct isnt it, worthy of mirth IMO

[Mrsjay]

Ach im working class with no Middle classness in me, dad was a miner mum worked in a factory cleaned worked in cafes now works in a shop I went to college and worked with children dh is a tradesperson ,

[flow4]

So do we all take our 'fundamental' class identity from our parents, then, - with each person either accepting or rejecting that class as they accept or reject their parents' values?

(I'm genuinely asking - or hypothesising - cos I still can't put my finger on how someone decides on their own class!)

[Mrsjay]

(I'm genuinely asking - or hypothesising - cos I still can't put my finger on how someone decides on their own class!)

I think that is how the class system is supposed to work stemming from family education etc etc not that it matters imo cos it really doesn't

[OwlLady]

Interestingly I think my children will most probably see themselves as middle class, I think they actually might be. We live in a naice area, live in a house in the country (though we rent) we have dogs and chickens, a vegetable patch, we all read, visit national trust houses they go to good schools, though still state, they have aspirations that I don't feel I ever had at that age and they talk dead posh compared to me:o

[flow4]

It really shouldn't matter, but it does seem to, don't you think? Otherwise we wouldn't have a Cabinet full of millionaires, and media companies and courts full of people who went to school with each other...

[takataka]

flow i cant really answer what you are asking...I was raised in a WC family, and I just feel WC (strongly). I couldnt choose to reject that, so

I didnt realise other people didnt feel a 'class'

[Mrsjay]

they are not middle class those the cabinet people are they they are privilaged (sp) beyond belief , scotland doesn't seem to to the middle class thing IME yes you do get people who are richer or have better careers but there doesn't seem to be THAT importance put on class , but saying that only on MN have i ever had a debate about it over and over again the subject pops up

[flow4]

I do think it's odd... As far as I can see, class is but also isn't determined by ...

• money
  
• education
  
• whether you work or not
  
• your employment, if you do work
  
• parents' employment
  

And from what people are saying, it seems more defined by...

• clothing
  
• food (especially hummus! )
  
• other spending choices
  

So have our class identities now become entangled with, or even replaced by, consumer identities?
-

[MariaMandarin]

'Deciding' what class you are requires class consciousness. My parents are working class and very aware of it. It informs many of their views on life and politics, for example the idea that people are poor because of the way our society is constructed rather than just because they are lazy and stupid. Obviously that rubs off and I feel more working class than MC even though I know I aspire to the perfect MC lifestyle.

[Alisvolatpropiis]

*OwlLady I know what you mean. I don't think you can ever "change" classes yourself,because your most formative experiences will relate to it. I think the whole thing about being aspirational is very much related to your children,wanting better for them,that kind of thing.

. I'm not sure how I see myself really, I suppose working class. Mostly because there's an awful lot of money between me and someone who can live in Lisvane (v v middle class area of Cardiff),having a degree doesn't change that fact.

This whole lower and upper middle class thing is a to me.

I did once get told by a posh bloke at uni that "lower middle class girls like you always have such lovely manners". I was very unimpressed!

[FredFredGeorge]

Class identities have been consumer identities since the removal of indentured servitude I'd say. They're defined more by the consumption of goods and spending of leisure time (which is a consumer choice), rather than anything else.

[wordfactory]

flow I think our consumer identities are becoming more important to our class identities all the time.

An dmuch of this is driven by the middle classes.

Traditionally your education and your income would mark you out. But nowadays many an arriviste is both better educated and better paid.

So other markers are pushed to the fore. How we do or don't consume is a huge marker. But the real biggie is how we parent. Middle class parenting is very display focussed.

[MorrisZapp]

Middle class parenting is very display focused?

Wtf? Please explain this very odd sounding assertion.

Signed, a middle class parent.

[grimbletart]

Boasting about being middle class is snobbery.

Boating about being working class is inverted snobbery.

Both are bollocks.