to not understand how you can fire missiles targeting civilians and it not be a war crime

[Itsaboatjack]

now I'm not especially knowledgable about the problems in the middle east but surely firing missiles into a city intentionally killing civilians is some kind of war crime?

Interesting letters page in today's Guardian

Very interesting, especially the letter from the group of Jewish commentators which includes the reminder

' Israeli casualties came only after Israel, having started the slaughter by killing a 13-year-old boy in Gaza on 8 November, shattered a truce by assassinating the military leader who had negotiated it'

This is what Elaine was denying last night.

' Israeli casualties came only after Israel, having started the slaughter by killing a 13-year-old boy in Gaza on 8 November, shattered a truce by assassinating the military leader who had negotiated it'

As I said:
I think the "Israel broke the ceasefire" diatribe is ironic, considering the "fire" never "ceased" is the first place.

Ask people in South Israel about the "ceasefire" - they were bombed constantly over the Summer (that's before the 8th November).

"Israel was born by violence by a supremacist people."

Can you clarify who the "people" are, please?

I would just like to point out that as much as people would like to distance themselves from Gilad Sharon's remarks, some of his logic and reasoning has appeared on this very thread.

I'm referring specifically to:

"The residents of Gaza are not innocent, they elected Hamas."

and

"The Gazans aren?t hostages; they chose this freely, and must live with the consequences."

Do you see what dangerous logic this is now? It enables attitudes like his.

Gilad Sharon has as much influence as Mark Thatcher.
Eli Yishai's comments are indefensible but I'm sure, in the interest of fairness, you've also looked at the comments coming out of Hamas. If there were a contest of indefensible comments, I think they'd win.

I think you're very one sided crescent moon but personally I do think there would have been a historic justice to Israel being established in, say, Austria. However, the Zionist movement in Palestine predated by about 70 years the holocaust so it was already well-established. Sure, they bought land and didn't sell it back and didn't employ arabs because there was Jewish unemployment and a well established fear of arab violence
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots

The Palestinians were certainly victims of their own short-sightedness and blood-thirstiness (as they continue to be) but also forces beyond their control.

To be honest, I really wouldn't want to be a Jewish minority in a Palestinian majority state. They don't have a very good track record with things like democracy and protecting the rights of minorities - look at what has happened to the Christian Palestinian population!
persecution of christians

Alis
The reason the Palestinians should have agreed to a compromise plan in 1947 was because there were 650,000 Jews living there who also had nationalist aspirations. But more than that, they should have agreed to a compromise to avoid war and avoid catastrophe. They didn't, they lost. You can't shoot your parents and then ask the court for clemency because you're an orphan.

ohbugger

Everyone knows Hamas started this current round of violence, no one else seems to be mentioning this excuse apart from you and some 'group of Jewish commentators' (whatever that means! i didn't know that Jewish commentators grouped together). That's why the Obama administration, UK etc are backing Israel.

I quote from the BBC

"Israel was effectively given a window within which to act by its key allies in the US and Europe, who largely held Hamas responsible for this upsurge in fighting."

Hamas is responsible.

Why doesn't Egypt open its borders Crescentmoon?

Isn't marsi part of the Muslim brotherhood, doesn't seem very brotherly to Hamas to me!

Would a Jewish minority in your one state solution be treated like the Christian palestinians are currently being treated Crescentmoon?

There's no solution to the current situation, because the reality is that, as an entity, Palestine wants Israel annihilated and absolutely no alternative scenario is palatable to them.

As proven by their words and actions, over and over again.

I said it before - Israel could withdraw to a single street in Tel Aviv and they would continue to be the target of terrorist attacks.

The fact that no one in this thread is willing to admit this frustrates the hell out of me.

Continuous quotes by people like Galid Sharon are pointless because, as Elaine mentioned, we quote Hamas back all day long.

For example:
"The Holocaust is a Zionist lie"

The head of Hamas' education committee in Gaza, Abdul Rahman el-Jamal, said that the Holocaust was a "big lie".

The interior ministry of the Hamas de facto government in Gaza expressed astonishment over the UNRWA curriculum's acknowledgement of the Holocaust." "We reject teaching our pupils such thoughts that contradicts with our Palestinian beliefs."

Hamas spiritual leader Yunis al-Astal said teaching children about the Nazi genocide of Jews would be "marketing a lie", and characterized the possible introduction of the subject into Gaza schools as a "war crime"

Elaine, they are a group because they collectively wrote and signed a letter printed in the Guardian, which you can read if you click on the link above. Have a look at who's represented there.

There are also a number of other commentators and pressure groups, in the UK, Canada and the States as well as in the region, trying to raise awareness of what happened and deploring the lack of media coverage it was given at the time.

And as for calling it an excuse, do you have children? If one of them was randomly shot in the stomach and killed as they were playing in the street, how pacific would you be feeling?

I'm not sure that's completely true Poppy. I think there are many moderate and pragmatic Palestinians who accept that Israel is here to stay and the way forward is comrpromise and cooperation, like Hanan Ashrawi or Sari Nusseibeh and even Mahmoud Abbas. Admittedly their voices seem very weak but they're certainly there.

Actually, ohbugger, a good friend of mine was blown up by Al Qaeda in Sinai.

When I worked in Israel, two colleagues of mine, in two separate incidents lost teenage children in terrorist bombings (one in a cafe and one in a bus bombing).

Of course I don't how they feel personally, but I do know the sense of loss due to random violence.

Yet, I am not advocating for killing all Muslims, am I?

Elaine, granted.

Again, to qualify my statement, when I say "Palestinians" I'm referring to the entity in general and in particular to Hamas - not to individuals.

And if Hamas TRULY cared about the welfare of the Palestinian people, they wouldn't be doing what they're doing. That's why it's an excuse.

And I had a google of this incident of the 13 year old boy. There's no evidence that it was Israel. There was a skirmish going on nearby. Israelis AND Palestinians were shooting. It could equally have been a Plaestinian bullet.

Crescentmoon

You still haven't answered me why shouldn't Muslim-brotherhood led Egypt open their border at Rafah to their Muslim brothers?