to not understand how you can fire missiles targeting civilians and it not be a war crime

[Itsaboatjack]

now I'm not especially knowledgable about the problems in the middle east but surely firing missiles into a city intentionally killing civilians is some kind of war crime?

No doubt, but seeing as Israel is supported by both the USA and the UK their position is significantly more powerful and influential.

And you're unbiased?

Ohbuggered, a creditable link would be nice. Funny that no one else is talking about this, seems rather convenient for Hamas

No, I'm biased. I've been very open about why I'm biased!

Why should the Palestinians have to leave their land? Why can't Israel give some of the land back? Weren't borders agreed in 1967?

I am fairly sure if France decided part of Wales was actually theirs and made all Welsh people move to Wrexham, all of them,then they would be pretty angry and disagreeable about the whole thing too.

Israel have behaved unreasonably with regard to Palestine for years and "Palestinians don't think Israel should exist" really isn't a good enough reason to treat them like sub humans.

I don't think anyone should be treated as sub humans, one has nothing to with the other, i comoletely agree pa,estinians have been denied their civil rights and this js wrong but also they are equally to blame. The first intifada was completely justified and Israel was simply wrong. The second intifada was one of the biggest mistakes the Palestinians ever made.

No borders weren't 'agreed' in 1967. There was a ceasefire because the Arabs tried to destroy Israel (again) and failed. Israel won back the west bank and gaza which had always been part of mandatory Palestine. Moshe Dayan famously said 'we are waiting for a phone call from the Arabs'. At that point, there was no intention to keep the west bank and gaza. But the Arabs turned down any peace deal with the three nos of Khartoum.

Israel gave back all of the Sinai in return for peace with Egypt. It's not like it won't give up land for peace. The trouble is that the Palestinians haven't shown much enthusiasm for the peace process! If they have stuck to the Oslo accords, rather than starting the second intifada, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in today.

Yes, but Alis, gilad Sharon is just a former prime ministers son writing in a right wing paper. You could easily look at, say, gilad levy who writes in haaretz or amira Hess (I think that's her name), very left wing Israeli journalists who will openly express an alternative view - and it's that alternative view which seems to be sadly missing in gaza.

I have nothing but the hugest respect for medical staff working in Gaza today.

First, while there has been no final agreement on Gaza's borders, the various rounds of the peace process have established what the de facto borders are. There's no real mystery there.

Second, to say that Gaza is not under siege because Israel withdrew is really disingenuous. Gaza has no control over its own borders and Israel and Egypt keep very tight control over everything that comes in and out, in the name of preventing military shipments. This is why there is so much deprivation.

Interestingly, Hamas is now saying it will agree a ceasefire based on this very issue -- they want open borders. From the AP:

"The Islamists view the current round of fighting as an opportunity to pry open the borders of Gaza, which slammed shut in 2007, after Hamas wrested control of the territory from its political rival, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. In response to the takeover, Israel and Egypt ? then under Morsi's pro-Western predecessor Hosni Mubarak ? sealed off Gaza to disrupt Hamas rule...

Both Israel and Egypt's new leader have eased access to the territory since 2007, but many restrictions remain. But even Morsi ? who is sympathetic to Hamas as a fellow member of the region-wide Muslim Brotherhood ? has resisted Hamas calls for open trade between Gaza and Egypt. Morsi fears such ties could undercut attempts to set up a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank, the territory on the other side of Israel, where Abbas has partial control..."

Oh I am aware that there are "right on" people as you called them upthread,in Israel.

I have no personal bias with regard to this conflict.

I simply cannot understand why everyone expects or ever expected Palestine to be happy with how Israel was founded never mind how it continued to expand. It was arrogant imperialism,dividing a country and gifting it to others like it was a cake. It is very easy for people to say the Palestinians were unreasonable then and are being unreasonable now. I don't think they are,from their own perspective.

Israelis aren't unreasonable for wanting a peaceful life. Palestinians aren't unreasonable for wanting their civil rights and land back.

The Israeli government and Hamas are being very unreadable however. Israel may have to accept that,being the mightier power with greater positive international influence,they may have to make the first move towards a ceasefire.

I mean, the level of control over Gaza is really quite astounding. They have no economic freedom whatsoever.

I'm sorry but open borders? You know there did used to be open borders before the second intifada? Do you know why gazans are no longer allowed free access to Israel? Israel, quite rightly, does not want Hamas members wandering the streets of tel aviv blowing themselves up in schools, buses, cafes, nightclubs. Let them go to egypt if they want them.

Alis - sorry but you clearly understand nothing about this region. No, borders were not decided in 1967. Israel has already ceded control of gaza which rules itself as do the palestinians in the west bank. Survey after survey shows that an Israeli majority would agree to a comprehensive peace deal if only the Palestinians genuinely were willing to live in peace. Unfortunately the sentiment is not reciprocated on the other side. Hamas still openly declares that its main aim is the destruction of the state of Israel.
Not a better life for its citizens; not peace and quiet; not economic progress; but the destruction of another country. 'a pox on both their houses' - a sentiment that has been expressed in the parts of this thread I've read - just doesn't apply in these circumstances. Israelis want to live in peace but how are they to do that when their neighbours bombard a million civilians with rockets day in, day out?
As for the ridiculous idea also expressed so often by people who want to appear knowledgable, that Netanyahu is doing this to secure his reelection - that's laughable. His reelection was guaranteed anyway with a far bigger vote than he had before. This path contains many risks for him if he messes up. He is acting because it is beyond intolerable for a million people to have to live under the threat of rockets day in day out. I hope this operation succeeds and that quiet can be restored to Israel's south.

Mizza I understand a great deal about the region,so please,be a love and try not to be so incredibly condescending.

The attack on Gaza is clearly intended to provoke Iran. That's the real aim.

That's accepted isn't it??

I never said 'right on' and I find that incredibly rude and dismissive of the great work they do. You're certainly not the one getting on a bus to demonstrate together with palestinians, they are.

What exactly was arrogant imperialism? Nothing to do with arrogance or imperialism. I think post 1967 things changed but before then it was a battle for survival.

You might not like how things turn out but at some point you need to accept that you have lost and despite all your best efforts, that the 'crusader state' is here to stay.

you need to accept that you have lost and despite all your best efforts, that the 'crusader state' is here to stay.

And equally, Palestine is here to stay, yes?

Mizza - I was really skeptical about the motives being so close to elections and because I detest Bibi (and wouldn't it past him to orchestrate such a thing) but after having read a bit more at the weekend I realize it really is Hamas who have ratcheted the whole thing up.

Oh those pesky Palestinians, railing against imperialism.

There is no Palestinian state. I would very much like there to be one and I would like to see it prosper and live in peace with Israel. Given the current situation and lack of governance, I'm not sure full statehood will be achievable in the near future.

You're probably right, if things continue as they have this weekend.

Elaine

You have totally misunderstood that entire comment.

You,I thought, referred to people sympathising with Palestine,or having a less hard line view as being "right on". I am typing on my phone so it is a bit of nightmare scrolling back through multiple long posts. I apologise if you didn't say that. Liberal thinkers do an important job,I wouldn't argue otherwise. I am aware that Israel has liberal thinkers.

I meant the actions of the allies were arrogant and imperialistic,not the actions of Jewish people,in setting up Israel as they did. Not enough consideration was given to the long term consequences for the Arabs or the Israeli people.

I don't want to see Israel destroyed. Nor do I want to see Gazans suffer. They are all people who deserve peace. .

You're right, Mizza, it is beyond intolerable for a million people to have to live under the threat of rockets day in day out.

I'm sure people in Gaza would agree with you.

The operation is not going to succeed and Israel is not going to have quiet. Not until the peace process is reengaged. Both sides have to commit to the negotiations -- whatever Israel thinks about who's right and who's wrong, they can't unilaterally impose peace.

You often hear this talk -- Israelis want peace and Palestinians don't... Israel would make peace but the Palestinians keep up the violence....

Well the thing is, we don't make peace with our friends, we make peace with our enemies. If the Palestinians weren't doing anything that Israel disagreed with, there would be no need to make peace.

It's not possible for either side to win this conflict militarily. The sooner people realize that, maybe they will finally sit down and agree to something.

YANBU. Feel very sad for the Palestinians. I cannot believe how Israel was created, and think it is wrong and quite frankly evil.